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Thread: 14 little souls and one dear teacher

  1. #61
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    Regular folks attach words such as "hunting" to firearms to identify them as functionally different in purpose from other types of firearms and it is entirely reasonable that they do so. I can use my box end wrench set as hammers but no one would associate that use with a wrench and no one looks at my wrench set and says "boy, you sure could pound a lot of nails with those!". The gun rights folks love to deflect the debate onto side streets by focusing on definitions but the real issue here is lethality. My bolt action Tikka T3x 30-06 with its detachable 4 round magazine is a lot less lethal than an AR-15 with a 30 round detachable magazine especially since I can get a 100 round detachable magazine for the AR from Surefire. No one is going to look at my deer rifle and confuse it with the AR in terms of purpose, so this insistence on similar function is silly. They aren't the same.

    An AR platform rifle is lethal in ways my hunting rifle is not. That's why a distinction is made. They aren't all just "rifles" and the attempt to call them all the same tries to hide the differences between them.

    And by the way, the gun rights people realized long ago they had a problem with these AR rifles. People were using them to mow down large numbers of humans (which my hunting rifle cannot do with anywhere near the efficiency) so they tried to rebrand them as MSRs - Modern Sporting Rifles. So I guess if the gun rights people are OK with attaching a purpose to a rifle, other folks should be as well.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    An AR platform rifle is lethal in ways my hunting rifle is not. That's why a distinction is made. They aren't all just "rifles" and the attempt to call them all the same tries to hide the differences between them.
    Exactly! Couldn't agree more
    Dave

    Today is un-returnable !

  3. #63
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    I agree in principal about The lethality of AR-15 style weapons. But I think it begs a question. In my opinion demented evil killers will find a way to kill regardless of the weapon. Case in point I have a 1964 Browning semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Without the shell limiting dowel in place it will hold five 12 gauge shotgun shells. With a proper load it's unimaginable how many people could be killed with that shotgun in a small area. It's also very easy to reload, reload and reload again. And quickly.
    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriGuy View Post
    Sidebar point of discussion:

    It has been noted that the gunman was confronted by uniformed officers and still managed to force his way in and commit his carnage. If he, an untrained civilian with an AR15 was able to overcome trained officers and enter.

    This turns to not be a fact.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda View Post
    I agree in principal about The lethality of AR-15 style weapons. But I think it begs a question. In my opinion demented evil killers will find a way to kill regardless of the weapon. Case in point I have a 1964 Browning semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun. Without the shell limiting dowel in place it will hold five 12 gauge shotgun shells. With a proper load it's unimaginable how many people could be killed with that shotgun in a small area. It's also very easy to reload, reload and reload again. And quickly.
    The lethality of the AR comes from its ability to accept an external high capacity magazine. The Browning does not. Reloading a Browning is a one by one process. With an AR, it is pop out/pop in and ready with another 30 or 60 or 100 shots. The two really are not comparable, which is why the gun of choice is an AR, not a Browning semi. You can, as this individual did, take multiple external mags, load them up, and shoot a hundred of times in the same time you could unload that Browning and reload. 12 shots vs. 100.

    If, in response to making the AR less lethal, a different gun becomes the gun of choice, then that can be addressed. There is no demand for Browning semis by gun nuts wanting to kill lots of people. ARs are chosen, and it is because they are so much more efficient at killing.

    I agree, though. A demented killer will find a way to kill regardless. There is no perfect solution. But that's the problem here - looking for the perfect solution. I'd settle for less killing by making guns less lethal in these situations. By first banning high cap magazines and making possession of one illegal.

  6. #66
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    I was not attempting to make a comparison between the Browning and an AR-15 for there is no comparison. What I was stating is that if someone has the urge to kill they can do a damn good job of it with the Browning also. So they only kill 10 instead of 20 either way it's a bad bad deal.
    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  7. #67
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    One more note, on reloading:

    When Gabby Giffords was shot, her assailant used a Glock with a 31 round magazine. He was subdued when he tried to reload the weapon. Mind you, this is with a gun with the capacity to accept a high cap external magazine. Forcing a reload by limiting capacity can save lives. If the only weapon available to Loughner had been one of Ben's revolvers, he would have needed to reload every six shots, giving people five opportunities to subdue him.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda View Post
    I was not attempting to make a comparison between the Browning and an AR-15 for there is no comparison. What I was stating is that if someone has the urge to kill they can do a damn good job of it with the Browning also. So they only kill 10 instead of 20 either way it's a bad bad deal.
    I understand and I agree with your basic point. 10 is still better than 20. I'd settle for less lethal outcomes. That's my compromise.

    I once collected Model 12 Winchesters. They had a "trench model" that was used in warfare. One feature of the Model 12 was that if you held the trigger back, you could fire every time you worked the action slide. No separate trigger pull necessary. The trench model was loaded with buckshot and it cleared trenches with brutal efficiency. I won money in high school "unloading" contests - my M12 against ANY semi-automatic shotgun - how fast could you shoot 5 shots. I never lost.

  9. #69
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    I offer this from the New Yorker which speaks to this issue of the "platform":

    On April 28, 1996, Martin Bryant, a disturbed twenty-eight-year-old Australian who had been bullied at school, walked into a café in the city of Port Arthur, a former convict settlement in the state of Tasmania that is now a unesco World Heritage Site. He pulled a Colt AR-15 rifle from his duffelbag and started shooting. After killing more than twenty people in the café and in an adjacent gift shop, he reloaded his weapon and roamed around the site shooting at random. A carjacking and a hostage negotiation followed. By the time he was arrested, he had killed thirty-five people and wounded another twenty-three.

    Australia, like the United States, is a federalized former British colony that has long styled itself as a rugged, individualistic nation. Hunting and shooting are popular there. Unlike the U.S., though, Australia has a political system that is responsive to popular opinion. Its legislatures do not have filibuster-like rules that allow a minority of lawmakers to block legislation. Within two weeks of the Port Arthur massacre, the worst in modern Australian history, governments at the federal and state levels had agreed to ban semi-automatic and pump-action firearms. The federal government also introduced several other measures, including a buyback scheme to compensate owners of the newly banned firearms, a centralized registry of gun owners, and a public-education campaign about the new laws.

    Just over a year ago, Australia marked the twenty-fifth anniversary of the transformation brought about by the Port Arthur rampage. In a country of roughly twenty-seven million people, there are still a lot of guns in private hands—in 2020, there were an estimated 3.5 million. But the number of mass shootings, defined as attacks in which at least four people are killed, has declined precipitously. In the decade before Port Arthur, there had been eleven such incidents. In the quarter century since, there have been three, the worst of which involved a farmer in Western Australia killing six family members.

    It should be noted that Australia, like the U.S., has a strong gun lobby, which, until 1996, had successfully frustrated efforts to tighten gun laws there. When the conservative Prime Minister at the time, John Howard, pushed through the ban on certain firearms, gun owners were so angry that he wore a bullet-proof vest when he addressed a group of them. But the vast majority of Aussies backed Howard. After Port Arthur, Australia was “united in horror and grief, and there was a very strong level of support for what we had to do,” Howard recalled to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation last year. “The goal was to prohibit possession of automatic and semi-automatic weapons, and that’s been achieved. The country is a much safer place.”

    What happened in Australia provides a concrete example of how a healthy democracy can confront powerful interests to introduce rational policies that clearly benefit the country. The Australian success story also reminds us what a dismal outlier the United States remains in terms of gun violence and political will even in the face of the most gruesome and abhorrent of all mass shootings: the killings of schoolchildren.

    The urge to shoot children and other young people gathered in educational settings is certainly not confined to the United States. On March 13, 1996, a forty-three-year-old former Scout leader, Thomas Hamilton, entered Dunblane Primary School, in Scotland, carrying four legally owned handguns. He shot dead sixteen students and a teacher. On December 6, 1989, at Montreal’s École Polytechnique, a women-hating twenty-five-year-old man, Marc Lépine, who was armed with a Ruger Mini-14 semi-automatic rifle, gunned down fourteen female students and staff members. In terms of sheer cruelty and wantonness, these shootings rival anything seen in the United States. In both cases, though, the British and Canadian political systems responded.

    Compared with the United States, Britain already had strict gun laws, but it enacted even more controls after the Scotland attack. Within a year, Prime Minister John Major’s Conservative government had banned all handguns except for .22-calibre pistols; Tony Blair’s successive Labor government banned those, as well. Canada’s legislative response to the Montreal massacre wasn’t as immediate or as sweeping, but it did eventually include a twenty-eight-day waiting period for the purchase of guns, expanded background checks, a national registration system, and a ban on large-capacity magazines for semi-automatic weapons. In recent years, Canadian governments have further tightened gun laws. In 2020, after a deranged fifty-one-year-old dental technician, Gabriel Wortman, used a Mini-14 to murder twenty-two people during a shooting rampage in Nova Scotia, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau issued an executive order banning fifteen hundred “assault style” weapons, including the AR-15 and the Mini-14.

    Even Israel, a country that American gun enthusiasts point to as another heavily armed democracy, has much stricter gun-control laws than the United States does. To buy a gun there, you need a government license. The requirements for obtaining this license include satisfying a minimum-age limit (twenty-seven years old for anyone who hasn’t served in the military or national service), passing a gun-safety test, and obtaining a letter from a doctor that you are sound of mind and body. Many applicants in Israel are turned down, and even those whose applications get approved are, in most cases, limited to purchasing a single handgun with a limit of fifty bullets. Salvador Ramos, the shooter in Uvalde, Texas, legally purchased two AR-15 rifles and three hundred and seventy-five rounds of ammunition just days after his eighteenth birthday.

    The evidence couldn’t be more plain. Other countries haven’t entirely eliminated mass shootings, but they have enacted reforms that helped turn them into rare, aberrational events rather than the everyday occurrences they are in this country. Is it any wonder that much of the rest of the world considers us mad? From afar, the evidence suggests that we are. Up close, however, the real problem isn’t mass insanity. It’s political capture and a system that, aided by the filibuster, entrenches the status quo and prevents desperately needed reforms. Until we tackle these systemic problems, nothing will change.
    It's a start
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  10. #70
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    I was reading various sources and from what I can see, the reason there is no movement on this issue is

    1) Gerrymandered, safe districts where specifically Republican members are guaranteed re-election

    2) Primaries - the most committed come out to vote to choose the candidate for the general

    3) Job security - the goal of every politician is to be re-elected, not to solve problems.

    So a Republican politician knows that while the more moderate of his district will forgive and forget about his refusal to vote for gun control, for the gun rights members, they will NEVER forgive a vote for gun control and will primary him or her with a candidate that makes gun rights the central issue. Since the most committed are the people voting in the primary, that means there is no advantage (in terms of getting re-elected) to a Republican for supporting gun control measures. All it buys him or her is a primary battle and maybe getting booted from office. So no Republicans support any meaningful gun control legislation.

    Lest anyone think I'm picking on Republicans, it is the plain fact that opposition to gun control is a feature of conservatism these days. Supporting gun rights has become a short-hand for conservatives. How many campaigns in this primary season had candidates shooting guns or featuring themselves posing with guns or whatnot? LOTS. So nothing is likely to happen as a result of Uvalde because we are not "united by grief and horror" to the point of actually being willing to save children from these sorts of events by doing any meaningful gun control.

  11. #71
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    The extent of OUR problem:

    This chart, looking at public shootings in which four or more people were killed, shows how much the U.S. stands out:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  12. #72
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    Please forgive me but. an AR -15 is no match for many other weapons. Just be thankful that the killers have not yet

    started to use https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperst...-auto-shotguns

    A good start would be to limit capacity to 5 or 6 rounds . I say 6 because of revolvers . If that number of rounds does not do the job , you have no reason to own a weapon . Deer or pigs will be gone after the first shot anyway . Birds may give you a second chance but if you missed with the first , your chances are much less.
    Individual rights are protected only as long as they don't conflict with the desires of the state .

  13. #73
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    If killers start using them, then I guess we can worry about them. Until them, debating which guns are more lethal than others is useless. ARs are the weapon of choice right now, so...

    Mag capacity - 5 rounds. Not even in the same league as a 100 round external mag.

  14. #74
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    Semi-auto shotguns are far from new---although the tactical look might be. In my recently "lost" Armory was a Winchester Model 50 semi-auto, introduced in 1954, plus a couple of Winchester Model 12s which Kevin has already discussed.

    A near "fact" I just read:

    Details of the attack are still emerging. The gunman got into the school despite an armed security officer, and remained there for more than an hour before a tactical team entered and killed him.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  15. #75
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    I heard there was no SRO.... but it's all speculation and the medias hype at this time.

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