Over the top

[Mike]

It is cruel unless there is no other option. You are rationalizing a desire to inflict pain on a despised human being.

It all depends on what is the normal standard of care. There are plenty of dental issues that cause pain but for which the standard treatment is not extraction. Pulling teeth unnecessarily is a short step away from dental torture.

To keep it brief, I will say we should provide all inmates with basic care that equates to the Medicaid we provide to the indigent. Dental care the same.

A quick Google search revealed that tooth extractions are the most common surgical procedure performed in the U.S.

[Kevin]

Of course, the frequency of the procedure is not the issue. Whether it is the standard of care for all tooth pain is the issue. That is what was suggested - any tooth pain should result in extraction.

Moreover, by limiting your observation to dental surgeries misses the point that dental surgery is a subset of all possible dental procedures.

[Honda]

I think Mike made an excellent point. Medicaid should be the standard. Certainly Kevin I don't think you would advocate that a prisoner should receive more care than our indigent citizens.

[Kevin]

The Medicaid standard varies by state. In my state, what Medicaid will pay for is more generous than in other states. Relying on what Medicaid will pay for is not workable. Adult Medicaid dental procedures are a function of bureaucratic decisions, not doctors.

The standard of care I am speaking of is the medical standard, not what a bureaucrat says. By the same token, I think that the indigent in some states are treated fairly badly, so to me, using that as a standard is not justifiable.

If we are talking about what doctors see as the standard course of treatment, great. If we are talking about what bureaucrats in a given state think is standard, then no. I've experienced too many instances where disdain for the poor has led to states being stingy.

States have flexibility to determine what dental benefits are provided to adult Medicaid enrollees. While most states provide at least emergency dental services for adults, less than half of the states currently provide comprehensive dental care. There are no minimum requirements for adult dental coverage.

The standard proposed in this thread is if the tooth hurts, yank it out. That would actually be a step up from those states that do not allow for anything other than emergency procedures under Medicaid. So no, Medicaid is not a good standard.

[Honda]

Just a question let's say that an inmate comes in with jacked up teeth. Should the prison pay for braces?

[Kevin]

I think that would depend on what is the standard of care for such a case. Hard for me to know, but I think a doctor should make that call, not a layperson like me.

[Kevin]

Having said that, braces are commonly a cosmetic procedure, so not medically necessary. If teeth are extracted due to medical need, some sort of device is commonly needed afterwards, so that changes things.

That's why I think a doctor should make these decisions.

[Mike]

Just execute them all and problem solved. I'm out.

[Kevin]

That's a good illustration of my point - our feelings about proper care for criminals come from our feelings about their crimes, not about them as human beings, in many cases. What drives the discussion is an unsaid desire to throw these people away, quite often.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life

[Truckman]

Just execute them all and problem solved. I'm out.

I've made that argument innumerable times, and been vilified for it...It's somebody else's turn to take the lash......Ben

[Kevin]

Well, isn't outrage kind of what someone is provoking when making that sort of statement? It is a deliberately incendiary thing to say, and anyone saying something like that is throwing down a gauntlet. Can't be surprised if it is taken up.

[Kevin]

Of course, what I think about someone's opinion is a lot different from my thoughts about them as a person. I may not like a specific opinion you hold, Ben, but I like you quite a bit as a person. Same is true for everyone here. If I didn't like folks, I wouldn't come around to talk with them. I figure I have something to learn here, so i stay engaged.

Can't think of anyone here I wouldn't be happy to have over for barbecue.

Well, except Eric. I'm a little intimidated by his culinary skills. Everyone else, though, no prob.

[Truckman]

I didn't, and don't, take any of our differences of opinion personally, Kevin...All is cool...

I would watch Eric at the barbecue though...Just keep any appendages you wish to retain away from his chopping block...He tends to get a little edgy if he thinks the meat locker is running low......Ben

[Mike]

Well, isn't outrage kind of what someone is provoking when making that sort of statement? It is a deliberately incendiary thing to say, and anyone saying something like that is throwing down a gauntlet. Can't be surprised if it is taken up.

In this case, Kevin, I was trying to point out that just maybe your stance on the matter is a little too far out there for what needs to be, or can be accomplished. A little theatrics can sometimes help.

I am a firm believer that once we seize a person's body, we are responsible for the housing, feeding and medical care for that body. I also firmly believe that none of those cares should exceed the level of care that we provide to our indigent. So, if you want to improve the life of incarcerated persons, you must also improve indigent care. I used Medicaid as an example of a level of care. Does that have to be the standard? Of course not, it was just an example. But, if we are going to give more to inmates than what we are giving the poorest of the poor you damn well better figure out a way to equalize that care. Oh! None of that includes any premium care. I am sorry for their position in life, but basic care is what they should get. The government cannot and should not provide premium care. Life, unfortunately, is tough. I would like to have the same housing, food, medical care, lifestyle etc. as Leonardo DiCaprio. Should the government pay for me to have that? Of course not.

[on edit]

Our criminal justice system is seriously screwed up and in bad need of reform. The U.S. has far more people incarcerated per capita than any other nation in the world. Why is that? How do we fix it?

[Kevin]

My stances on some things are not practical, I admit, but I take the quotation in your signature line to heart. I remember that Robert Browning said a man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a heaven for?

Mostly, though, a lot of my opinions have their roots in the Jesuit teachings I have been exposed to. I say that not to be holier-than-thou but in a world where Christianity is associated with people like Jerry Falwell, I try to show a different interpretation of faith.

I have no problem with humane but basic care but that was not the standard proposed, so I said something. Perhaps, though, it was just a shorthand for, as you say, not providing premium care. If that is so, we have found agreement. I am glad that this is so.