An open discussion Re Roe

[Dave Grubb]

I applaud Politico for putting together this presentation of various view points.

Well done

Added in edit:

I am going to include a single opinion of many opinions expressed in the above article. I have chosen this one since it so closely mirrors my own but is stated far more eloquently:

‘Making abortion illegal will not materially affect the number of abortions.’
Randall Balmer is professor of religion at Dartmouth College and the author of Bad Faith: Race and the Rise of the Religious Right.

The Dobbs decision to overturn Roe v. Wade represents a pyrrhic victory for the anti-abortion movement. As a historian, I think the closest parallel is the Eighteenth Amendment, which inaugurated the era of Prohibition. Religious conservatives (and others) worked for and celebrated the ratification of the Eighteenth Amendment, but it proved all but impossible to enforce, and it led to an era of unrestrained lawlessness and, eventually, repeal.

The parallels are not exact, of course, but I expect a similar outcome in 10 years. Making abortion illegal will not materially affect the number of abortions, but it will drive the practice underground once again, thereby endangering the lives of women. I’ve long argued that abortion should be regarded as a moral issue, not a legal issue, and those sincerely wishing to reduce abortions should focus instead on changing the moral conversation surrounding the practice. Another way for these folks to frame the issue would be to say, “I have no interest in making abortion illegal; I want to make it unthinkable.” Such a posture requires much more effort, but it would ultimately be more effective for their stated goals. And it goes without saying that such efforts must be coupled with sex education and access to contraception.

[Independent Voter]

Yo Dave , I may be missing something here but , most posts I have seen seam to say that the S C Decision outlawed abortions . IT DID NOT . All it did was turn the decision back to the States to decide . I M O that is where it should have been . The several States are now able to VOTE on the subject .

As to the " my body , my choice " group . Where was the outrage when an un proven " vaccine " was required for people to earn a living or travel ? . What happened to " my body , my choice " then ?. Will ladies be forced from their jobs because they have an abortion , or if they chose to give birth ?

Now , take a deep breath before you tell me that that will never happen .

[FredK]

Interesting since I beleive most are caused by pills which I think the FDA has approved. So if one believes Garland's remarks those are regulated by the Feds and not the states.

[Dave Grubb]

IV, I am fully aware of the wording of the SCOTUS majority opinion. If you took the time to read that article from Politico you know that it was not of singular opinion but rather presented multiple opposing opinions.

I have already stated my opinion, which is that the entire issue of abortion is not be a legal issue---it is a moral issue. That means the States have no "standing" in this issue either.

I'm afraid your vaccine argument is a non-starter. I see no comparison

And Fred, I have read multiple opinions that claim this will not have a significant impact on the number of abortions---there remain multiple legal and illegal options.

[Honda]

IV, I am fully aware of the wording of the SCOTUS majority opinion. If you took the time to read that article from Politico you know that it was not of singular opinion but rather presented multiple opposing opinions.

I have already stated my opinion, which is that the entire issue of abortion is not be a legal issue---it is a moral issue. That means the States have no "standing" in this issue either.

I'm afraid your vaccine argument is a non-starter. I see no comparison

And Fred, I have read multiple opinions that claim this will not have a significant impact on the number of abortions---there remain multiple legal and illegal options.

Couldn't you simplify your position and just state you are pro choice. I'm done so with limitations many many months ago.

[Dave Grubb]

I have clearly stated my position, repeating it seems of little value.

Try reading the words in red at the beginning of this thread, that makes my position clear. Don't try a game of twisting what I have written. It is not that difficult to understand.

[Kevin]

In a battle of competing rights, someone is going to lose. The question is which rights are more important.

One group thought that they had done an end run around the issue, bypassing debate by getting it up to the Supreme Court. As we all just found out, that settled nothing. We are about to have a decades long debate over which rights are more important and this likely will not be settled in our lifetimes. My one hope is that it is settled peacefully but we as a nation don't have a good history doing that, unfortunately.

[UTAH]

...hope is that it is settled peacefully...

I believe the vast majority of Americans would agree with you, Kevin. It's the Far Right and Far Left that will harness people's anger to incite violence. We need our Fed and State law enforcement agencies to stay on top of these issues. If they don't... well, we're screwed.

Hunter

[Dave Grubb]

In a battle of competing rights, someone is going to lose. The question is which rights are more important.

One group thought that they had done an end run around the issue, bypassing debate by getting it up to the Supreme Court. As we all just found out, that settled nothing. We are about to have a decades long debate over which rights are more important and this likely will not be settled in our lifetimes. My one hope is that it is settled peacefully but we as a nation don't have a good history doing that, unfortunately.

Comparing what just happened with this decision by the SCOTUS and sending this back to the states and what happened in the 1800's leading up to the Civil War there is a very clear comparison. I hope that history does not repeat itself.

[Kevin]

That was where I was headed. The slavery issue was not just about the morality of the practice. It was about who is considered fully human. That is exactly what is happening now. The last time there was a disagreement on if a group was considered human, it got settled violently.

The language of a forced pregnancy is also being written in slavery terms. The state can force you to have a baby. Think of that for a moment from the perspective of a woman. The lack of bodily autonomy was what slavery was all about.

And consider the conditions in society that led up to the Civil War. We didn't just disagree about the issue, we despised the people in opposition to our position. When war was declared, there was open celebration in places North and South that we could finally, legally, go kill those bastards we detested.

This isn't just about people in conflict - states are about to get dragged in. Already, states are trying to figure out how to keep their citizens from traveling to obtain an abortion. They are trying to figure out how to criminalize doctors in other states who perform abortions. We will see attempts at extradition, likely to be refused, which will go up the Supreme Court for resolution. States are privatizing enforcement. Yeah, that worked well with the Jayhawkers.

So yes, there are a lot of common factors to the issue of slavery here. I'm against abortion but this coming time period will not be fun as we sort this out.

[Truckman]

It was about who is considered fully human. That is exactly what is happening now.

I see your point clearly now...Your comparison is valid......Ben

[Sandman]

What is.. is what is.. we can’t turn back time.. The court is the court..

IMHO..

One of three things will happen..

First, nothing.. the power balances in Congress and State houses will stay the same..

Second, Midterms and 2024 will bring bring in a wave of Republicans.. We will legislate ourselves back to the 1950s..

Third, Roe will have Democrats sweep midterm and 2024.. We will legislate ourselves into Sweden.. brace yourself, going to be a huge ripple effect..

Just my opinion, I could be wrong..

A view from the sidelines,( as a male I’m on the sidelines)

Financial tip.. the company that makes farm implements out of melted down assault weapons may be a good investment.. update.. the ripple is larger than predicted, add hand guns to the cauldron..

[Blue74]

Kevin Thanks for the history lesson and the parallels to the past.

[FredK]

What is.. is what is.. we can’t turn back time.. The court is the court..

IMHO..

One of three things will happen..

First, nothing.. the power balances in Congress and State houses will stay the same..

Second, Midterms and 2024 will bring bring in a wave of Republicans.. We will legislate ourselves back to the 1950s..

Third, Roe will have Democrats sweep midterm and 2024.. We will legislate ourselves into Sweden.. brace yourself, going to be a huge ripple effect..

...........

I believe your right on target with your predictions.