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Thread: "We must not humiliate Russia"

  1. #1
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    "We must not humiliate Russia"

    From the NYTimes:

    KRAMATORSK, Ukraine — As Ukrainian troops tried to claw back territory and stave off a blistering Russian assault along the country’s embattled eastern front, the government on Saturday sought also to repel a demand earlier in the day by President Emmanuel Macron of France that Moscow not be humiliated to improve chances of reaching a diplomatic solution.

    “We must not humiliate Russia so that the day when the fighting stops we can build an exit ramp through diplomatic means,” Mr. Macron, who has sought to position himself as the world’s chief negotiator with the Kremlin, said in an interview with French newspapers. “I am convinced that it is France’s role to be a mediating power.”

    Ukraine’s foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, responded with a scathing post on social media.

    “Calls to avoid humiliation of Russia can only humiliate France and every other country that would call for it,” Mr. Kuleba wrote. Instead, he argued, peace and the saving of lives could best be achieved by Russia being “put in its place.”
    OK, so the Russians destroy entire regions of the country. Major cities that look like Germany at the end of WWII. They commit atrocities such as rape, mass murder, forced deportations, separation of families. They create 7 million refugees, some of which are being cared for right now by my own relatives in Zakarpatiyya. They've destroyed the economy and it will likely take an entire generation to recover.

    But for God's sake, let's not humiliate them, they might not want to sit down and negotiate a peace. They invade, cause all this devastation and we need to cater to their national ego?

    Eff 'em.

  2. #2
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    I think the only way they will be willing to negotiate peace is if they are humiliated and have to take a position of weakness. Putin has too big an ego to back down voluntarily, and wants to prove himself a military genius, and will sacrifice his whole country to do it. It will get worse before it gets better.
    If you don't make someone elses life better, what good is yours?

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scooter View Post
    ......It will get worse before it gets better.
    I'm convinced it will never get better unless Putin is removed by whatever means necessary. If he remains in command nukes will fly before he admits defeat.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  4. #4
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    Oh the French........
    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  5. #5
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    It's a screwed up mess, do we get another Stalin, Lenin? When will the people open their eyes but when they fight back they are shipped by the thousands into Siberia. I think Mikes right on the nukes, he'd rather die a president rah rah rah then be a civilian. It's obvious he's not sane or stable or that any other Russian leader has ever been. Kind of like this madness with our politicians. How do we stop the madness there and here. Maybe not even stop it just agree that we need fixing and develop a plan. I think it's good that we don't have a merciful God, we'd all be dead.
    This is your mind on drugs!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda View Post
    Oh the French........
    Hoist the white battle flag!...Backwards, march!!......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

  7. #7
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    In an essay for Foreign Affairs this week, Samuel Charap examines a novel solution to Russia’s war in Ukraine. “Kyiv would renounce its ambitions to join NATO and embrace permanent neutrality,” he writes, “in return for receiving security guarantees from both its Western partners and from Russia.” In an age of renewed alliances and great-power conflict, neutrality may seem counterintuitive. But the idea has endured for centuries as an option for states threatened by more powerful neighbors.
    An option
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  8. #8
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    History tells us that the Treaty of Versailles did a fantastic job in humiliating the Germans.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  9. #9
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    That is a superficial reading of history, in my opinion.

    The problem with the Treaty of Versailles was not that it tried to humiliate Germany. The problem was that it engaged in extremely punitive measures through excessive reparations. National ego was not an issue. A "Carthaginian Peace", whereby Germany would be permanently weakened was the problem. Consequently, the Allies imposed huge reparations that bankrupted the country. Ukraine imposing huge reparations on Russia? Can't see it even if they win.

    What the French are thinking, I believe, is that unless Russia is given an exit ramp, they will continue to pursue the war. This is a fundamental misreading of Putin. I believe that unless a strategic defeat is suffered by Putin, he will not stop. Why should he? Russia has a LOT more resources than its opponent, has a state that represses dissent and notably, there isn't any real dissent from anything I've read. Russians seem to be genuinely supportive of this war, having bought into the lies about this being a war for national survival against successors to the Nazis. There is no reason for Putin to look for an exit ramp unless defeat forces him to seek one.

    And the idea that little Ukraine can somehow force great big Russia into a defeat that would allow the imposition of something like the Versailles Treaty, which came after Germany had suffered 15 million dead and wounded is just fantasy.

    The historical example of Versailles just won't work.

    Unless Russia is actually defeated, it will be back for more. That's what you get with Putin. Georgia and Crimea have already suffered from our search for half measures. I don't think we should add Ukraine to the list of places offered up to the bear, hoping that it will eat us last. Moreover, Putin is in power because the military supports him. The last time Russia suffered a strategic defeat was 1989, when they lost in Afghanistan. Guess what happened as a result? The Soviet Union fell. A strategic defeat in Ukraine would do the same, I think.

    Strategic defeat in Russia in 1905 against Japan led to the First Russian Revolution, with massive social unrest and the Tsar having to agree to a constitutional government to pacify the country. Massive losses in WWI led to the abdication of the Tsar when he lost the confidence of the military. The Bolsheviks then staged a coup against Kerensky later that year. Russia doesn't like strategic defeats and imposing one might be the best way of getting rid of Putin because unless we do, he'll be back.

  10. #10
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    Call it what you will Kevin but in the final analysis most historians judge it to have been a huge mistake.
    Whether the Treaty of Versailles is a direct and exact comparison or not it contains lessons to be remembered.

    If one fails to learn enough from looking at the Treaty of Versailles, then move on to the Marshall Plan and do a comparison of results.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  11. #11
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    I don't think Russia will agree to any we are sorry we won't be mean anymore document, If they did sign a cease and desist/ Peace treaty it wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, it would mean nothing. I do agree with Kevins last text though. In essence the treaty of Versailles IMO caused right around 100 million deaths, even with brain damage it's more than easy enough to see it being a/the direct link to WW11. Germany and all of it's people were more than fed up with reparations and no signature on a decades old document was going to crush what Hitler promised the German people for the future.
    This is your mind on drugs!

  12. #12
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    "Unless Russia is actually defeated, it will be back for more."
    - Kevin

    Agreed. Yet, I think Russia at some point will declare victory as a face-saving move. Hopefully, we'll make things painful enough that the Russkies will do so.

    Hunter
    I don't care if it hurts. I want to have control. I want a perfect body. I want a perfect soul. - Creep by Radiohead

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTAH View Post
    "Unless Russia is actually defeated, it will be back for more."
    - Kevin

    Agreed. Yet, I think Russia at some point will declare victory as a face-saving move. Hopefully, we'll make things painful enough that the Russkies will do so.

    Hunter
    I think a lot of mothers wondering where there husbands, sons and daughters are or returning home wounded. It took years for the change to get out of Vietnam for us hopefully it's a faster end for all over there.
    Fred

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    stayed alive."

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  14. #14
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    Right you are, Fred.

    Scuttlebut is that Putin is seriously ill. Now, I've never wished harm to a politician - but I make an exception for Putin. If he dies, his predecessor can readily withdraw and lay the blame at Putin's feet.

    Hunter
    I don't care if it hurts. I want to have control. I want a perfect body. I want a perfect soul. - Creep by Radiohead

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