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Thread: Just thoughts

  1. #1
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    Just thoughts

    This is from today's NYT---so we all know what that might mean and there is no need to repeat that

    I am interested in thoughts regarding this. Do you agree with the basic premise that suggests this is primarily a "conservative" problem? If not, why not?
    Please use facts to support an alternate opinion.

    If you have only deflection to offer, please pass. Thank you.

    David Leonhardt
    By David Leonhardt
    May 17, 2022, 6:46 a.m. ET
    Over the past decade, the Anti-Defamation League has counted about 450 U.S. murders committed by political extremists.

    Of these 450 killings, right-wing extremists committed about 75 percent. Islamic extremists were responsible for about 20 percent, and left-wing extremists were responsible for 4 percent.

    Nearly half of the murders were specifically tied to white supremacists:

    Image

    Credit...Source: Anti-Defamation League

    As this data shows, the American political right has a violence problem that has no equivalent on the left. And the 10 victims in Buffalo this past weekend are now part of this toll. “Right-wing extremist violence is our biggest threat,” Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, has written. “The numbers don’t lie.”

    The pattern extends to violence less severe than murder, like the Jan. 6 attack on Congress. It also extends to the language from some Republican politicians — including Donald Trump — and conservative media figures that treats violence as a legitimate form of political expression. A much larger number of Republican officials do not use this language but also do not denounce it or punish politicians who do use it; Kevin McCarthy, the top House Republican, is a leading example.

    It’s important to emphasize that not all extremist violence comes from the right — and that the precise explanation for any one attack can be murky, involving a mixture of ideology, mental illness, gun access and more. In the immediate aftermath of an attack, people are sometimes too quick to claim a direct cause and effect. But it is also incorrect to pretend that right-wing violence and left-wing violence are equivalent problems.

    Give your grad all of The Times.
    News, plus Cooking, Games and Wirecutter.
    Fears in Washington
    If you talk to members of Congress and their aides these days — especially off the record — you will often hear them mention their fears of violence being committed against them.

    Some Republican members of Congress have said that they were reluctant to vote for Trump’s impeachment or conviction partly because of the threats against other members who had already denounced him. House Republicans who voted for President Biden’s infrastructure bill also received threats. Democrats say their offices receive a spike in phone calls and online messages threatening violence after they are criticized on conservative social media or cable television shows.

    People who oversee elections report similar problems. “One in six elec­tion offi­cials have exper­i­enced threats because of their job,” the Brennan Center, a research group, reported this year. “Ranging from death threats that name offi­cials’ young chil­dren to racist and gendered harass­ment, these attacks have forced elec­tion offi­cials across the coun­try to take steps like hiring personal secur­ity, flee­ing their homes, and putting their chil­dren into coun­sel­ing.”

    There is often overlap between these violent threats and white supremacist beliefs. White supremacy tends to treat people of color as un-American or even less than fully human, views that can make violence seem justifiable. The suspect in the Buffalo massacre evidently posted an online manifesto that discussed replacement theory, a racial conspiracy theory that Tucker Carlson promotes on his Fox News show.

    (This Times story examines how replacement theory has entered the Republican mainstream.)

    “History has taught us that what begins with words ends in far worse,” Representative Liz Cheney, one of the few Republicans who have repeatedly and consistently denounced violence and talk of violence from the right, wrote on Twitter yesterday. “The House GOP leadership has enabled white nationalism, white supremacy, and antisemitism,” Cheney wrote, and called on Republican leaders to “renounce and reject these views and those who hold them.”

    A few other Republicans, like Senator Mitt Romney, have taken a similar stance. But many other prominent Republicans have taken a more neutral stance or even embraced talk of violence.

    Some have spoken openly about violence as a legitimate political tool — and not just Trump, who has done so frequently.

    At the rally that preceded the Jan. 6 attack, Representative Mo Brooks suggested the crowd should “start taking down names and kicking ass.” Before she was elected to Congress, Marjorie Taylor Greene supported the idea of executing Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and other top Democrats. Representative Paul Gosar once posted an animated video altered to depict himself killing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and swinging swords at Biden.

    Rick Perry, a former Texas governor, once called the Federal Reserve “treasonous” and talked about treating its chairman “pretty ugly.” During Greg Gianforte’s campaign for Montana’s House seat, he went so far as to assault a reporter who asked him a question he didn’t like; Gianforte won and has since become Montana’s governor.

    These Republicans have received no meaningful sanction from their party. McCarthy, the Republican leader in the House, has been especially solicitous of Brooks and other members who use violent imagery.

    This Republican comfort with violence is new. Republican leaders from past decades, like Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, Howard Baker and the Bushes, did not evoke violence.

    “In a stable democracy,” Steven Levitsky, a Harvard political scientist, told me, “politicians unambiguously reject violence and unambiguously expel from their ranks antidemocratic forces.”
    If you agree, do you see a possible means of change?
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  2. #2
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    Yes, conservatives have a problem. Trump normalized the crazies and Republicans need the bigoted to get elected.

    I see it around me in rural upstate NY constantly. My neighbor flies a Confederate flag and objects to a white man having to stand behind a black man at the DMV. Another believes that Democrats are buying votes with social welfare programs, ignoring that Republicans voted for these programs as well in a gentler time. Conspiracy theories galore about stolen elections, mutterings about taking this country back from the "n------" and "spic--", "brown people are trash", you name it. What is wild to me is that people up here seem very much OK with expressing this out loud, certainly after a black man was elected President and loudly after Trump made it OK to say such stuff. Hell, Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham promote white replacement theory, which is about as racist as you can get, on a major cable network. People up by me, such as GOP number 3 Elise Stefanik repeat it and lots of people around me, instead of calling her out, nod in agreement.

    There is no means of change. People almost never change their basic weltanschaung. Suppression is the only avenue I see.

    Before the "But Democrats do this too!" BS starts, put that in another thread, please. I agree, there are some real dillies in the Democrat ranks and I don't care for them much either, but this is about the problems that Republicans are facing, not a "you suck worse" thread.

  3. #3
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    I mostly agree with the article. However, I see no means of change without violence. The non-violent, non-white supremacists, non-political extremists etc. are going to have to get fed up with this BS and kick some ass. That's the only thing these violent fools understand.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  4. #4
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    Get rid of the Electoral College.

  5. #5
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    I often said that, as an engineer, I was much better equipped to deal with hardware problems than "software" problems---meaning personnel related issues.

    That said, I am not sure that changing these peoples minds justifies or even benefits in a response in kind. Rather, I think, much of this emergence has come about by our political "leaders", at minimum, ignoring this rhetoric and in many cases echoing the same rhetoric.

    Those same political "leaders" need to stand up for what is and is not acceptable rhetoric and actions. They need to begin with their own kind. I could name them but the list I think is clear and far too long for me to type out!

    This trash is being enabled by the same people that need to make it stop

    Beyond that, the media needs to stop---grow up and act like adults. People like pucker need to leave the stag and stop feeding the "wildlife". Ultimately, that all boils down to greed. Greed of the "puckers" and greed of those companies that buy ad time on his shows, which in turn, enable the "puckers". If I knew who those companies were, I'd would be the first in the boycott line.

    I know one thing for sure----there are more of us who don't watch "pucker" than do.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    I know one thing for sure----there are more of us who don't watch "pucker" than do.
    Pucker?......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckman View Post
    Pucker?......Ben
    tucker carlson, a talking head on fox.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    tucker carlson, a talking head on fox.
    That explains my ignorance......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckman View Post
    That explains my ignorance......Ben
    I would call that a positive attribute in this case
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  10. #10
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    The problem is white rage about loss of position in society. I don't think that a different media message will help that.

    More the issue, in my mind, is the ability of these groups to find each other on social media and stir each other up. This guy in Buffalo got radicalized on 4Chan. He live streamed his rampage after seeing a stream of the guy in New Zealand that shot up a mosque. The Buffalo live stream was taken down but it is being passed around on social media and the kooks think he's a hero.

    I can't think of any good social media has done that counterbalances the evil it has unleashed on us.

  11. #11
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    In all fairness.. I have commented in the past about syntax issues involving name calling..

    So.. in fairness to other members..

    Proper syntax for name calling would be “Pucker, neener, neener, poo-poo”….

    And.. I spent enough time on an inter city school yard to know that this is correct..

    Personal opinion.. if I decide to call him a name, I only have to sing the alphabet song to the sixth letter to find a rhyme.. neener, neener, poo-poo…

  12. #12
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    It must be the Unicorn's and Rainbows but I see more interracial couple and just a whole lot of different couples. I'm just hoping that the "colors" of skin start to be more of a blend and the younger generation will become a shade of tan.
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