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Thread: Maybe a solution?

  1. #16
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    For the issue of crime in general, consider this:

    Much of our crime revolves around illegal drugs. So, legalize them. Regulate them. Tax their use. Prohibition led to a HUGE spike in crime. So did drug prohibition. Legalize drugs in a regulated way and a lot of the crime-related mass shootings go away.

    Different problem, different solution.

  2. #17
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    Even more of our crime revolves around murder, kidnapping, theft, prostitution, blackmail...So, by your suggestion Kevin, legalize them, regulate them, tax their use...Pretty soon, as crime and punishment disappear, we won't need to pay attorneys, police or prison employees...Those people will be free then to pursue other careers and lives of fulfillment......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

  3. #18
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    Face it, folks. There is no solution. It is a plain and simple fact.

    If the government bans firearms or any sub-set of firearms, the only people who will comply with the ban are the law abiding people who are not the problem. The bad guys will not comply. All you have done is to punish the law abiding people for something they did not do and you have done nothing to hinder the bad guys.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  4. #19
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    I agree, Mike...It's all academic, and we all know it......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truckman View Post
    Even more of our crime revolves around murder, kidnapping, theft, prostitution, blackmail...So, by your suggestion Kevin, legalize them, regulate them, tax their use...Pretty soon, as crime and punishment disappear, we won't need to pay attorneys, police or prison employees...Those people will be free then to pursue other careers and lives of fulfillment......Ben
    That's not a valid argument, Ben. Many of the things you mention involve actions taken against other people. Drugs only harm the user. Prostitution involves consenting adults in countries where it has been legalized. There is not a correspondence in your listing to drug activity, so the argument you make is not valid.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Face it, folks. There is no solution. It is a plain and simple fact.

    If the government bans firearms or any sub-set of firearms, the only people who will comply with the ban are the law abiding people who are not the problem. The bad guys will not comply. All you have done is to punish the law abiding people for something they did not do and you have done nothing to hinder the bad guys.

    True, the bad guys will not comply. But again, you and Ben are talking about crime in general. I'm speaking specifically about mass shootings, which in many cases are not being done by "bad guys" but people who up to that point, were "law abiding people".

    With respect to "bad guys", I will only note that in other nations, the "bad guys" are not killing people with anywhere near the profligacy as they are here. The easy availability of guns makes our situation much much worse. I think you are concluding that since the issue of gun violence in criminal activity will not be eliminated, it will do no good to even try to reduce the carnage. Making drugs legal would remove much violence. Not much rum running going on these days.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    True, the bad guys will not comply. But again, you and Ben are talking about crime in general. I'm speaking specifically about mass shootings, which in many cases are not being done by "bad guys" but people who up to that point, were "law abiding people".

    With respect to "bad guys", I will only note that in other nations, the "bad guys" are not killing people with anywhere near the profligacy as they are here. The easy availability of guns makes our situation much much worse. I think you are concluding that since the issue of gun violence in criminal activity will not be eliminated, it will do no good to even try to reduce the carnage. Making drugs legal would remove much violence. Not much rum running going on these days.
    So you would just take the "shotgun" approach to the problem and ignore the collateral damage, which by the way, will affect way more law abiding people than the problem you are trying to cure. That leaves me out of the discussion - gonna go mow some pasture.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  8. #23
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    That's the bloody calculus I was speaking of - inconvenience for some is weighed against death for others.

    I don't know how that works. The collateral damage is a person would not be able to freely enjoy their guns as they have in the past. How that stacks up against mass shooting after mass shooting - Charleston, Sandy Hook, Parkland, the list is ENDLESS - is not a calculation I can make. To me, there is no equivalency.

  9. #24
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    Got some mowing done, not nearly enough but I'll hit it again tomorrow morning before it gets too hot.

    As for the topic, I don't think anyone can make that calculation because it is based entirely on emotion. By both sides. There is no mathematical proof for this.

    Maybe Prohibition could be used as an example of what happens when government tries to dictate morals to two extremely divided sides.
    National prohibition of alcohol (1920–33) — the “noble experiment” — was undertaken to reduce crime and corruption, solve social problems, reduce the tax burden created by prisons and poorhouses, and improve health and hygiene in America. The results of that experiment clearly indicate that it was a miserable failure on all counts.CATO
    Not a perfect example, but similar. It failed because it deprived enough people of something they wanted badly enough to defy the government's restrictions. The same results are being seen with the war on drugs which is an incredible failure. Do it with firearms and the results will be the same only with worse results because criminals will be armed with deadly weapons while the law abiding public will be nothing but prey.

    Maybe.

    I am of the opinion that a large portion of the population will defy the government and refuse to surrender their firearms. I wonder how that will work out? That question is not intended to be a threat or even provocative. It is nothing more than a question about a topic I am curious about.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  10. #25
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    Not a comparable comparison. 86% of the people in the US have consumed alcohol, 76% with some regularity. Only 32% of the people in the US live in a household with a firearm and I bet it is like my own was - I own a few guns but my wife and two daughters had no involvement, so the actual number of people affected by a confiscation program would be far lower, in the under 10% range. Look at Ben - he has over 100 guns all by himself. Most people in the US drink but only a small percentage have all the guns. Not really a good comparison.

    Any law is an application of morals, so the idea that we can't legislate morals is not accurate.

    It is interesting that law-abiding gun owners, in your view, would not abide by the law if it means they would have to give up their enjoyment of an activity in order to keep others safe. Sort of negates the whole "law-abiding" idea.

    I have no doubt whatever that you would be willing to die in order to protect this right. The question is, are you willing to keep asking others to as well? The people in Buffalo were not asked. I'm not willing to ask others to die for my beliefs.

  11. #26
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    Your position is clear, as is mine. I see no reason for either of us to bang our heads so I will move on to other topics.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  12. #27
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    The one thing I keep hear is I need my gun for protection. But how has that worked during the mass shootings? The church in California tackled and hog ties the shooter.

    As far as confiscation of firearms, I think that the number of firearms would be overwhelming.
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  13. #28
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    Every time there is a mass [ whatever that is in numbers ] shooting , there is a corresponding hue and cry for GET THE GUNS .

    Any shooting is a tragedy and I would hope that it will stop. it won't , but , I can hope. Ten innocent souls are dead because of one deranged individual in the latest " mass shooting " and there is non stop news and out cry .

    On a weekly basis in just one city there are more shootings and it rates a 30 second blurb on the news .

    �� Weekend Violence – CBS Chicago
    chicago.cbslocal.com
    › tag › weekend-violence
    November 8, 2021 - At Least 6 Killed, 28 Wounded In Weekend Gun Violence In ChicagoAt least 34 people were shot this weekend in Chicago, and six of them had been killed. 3 Killed, 26 Wounded In Weekend Shootings Across ChicagoAt least 29 people have been shot across Chicago so far this weekend, and three of the ...

    Why should the " mass shooting " be so much more worth constant news ?. Is it because it gives those with an agenda a good reason to demand the rest of us give up our right to self defense ? . Arethose in power going to give up the armed men and women who are there to protect them ?. I'll wager that they are not.

    I have just as much right to protect myself as those who have protection paid for by our taxes.
    Individual rights are protected only as long as they don't conflict with the desires of the state .

  14. #29
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    Well said, Dick......Ben
    The future is forged on the anvil of history...The interpreter of history wields the hammer... - Unknown author...

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