The coal plant next door.
The "what" is not in dispute---only the "who pays"---the one who did the deed (and pocketed the profits) or the public.
Charter Member
The coal plant next door.
The "what" is not in dispute---only the "who pays"---the one who did the deed (and pocketed the profits) or the public.
Last edited by Dave Grubb; 04-01-2021 at 11:32 AM.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
“You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis
Registered Member
The customer will always bear the cost to the corporation. Thing is, sometimes the corporation is the government.
I signed several contracts to build ash ponds (bulldozers again). Should our profits be regorged?
And a very timely expose as I believe some of these sins will be addressed in the new “infrastructure bill”.
"Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.
don"
Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Charter Member
No argument---but let's not simply excuse the guilty from taking part in the cure. Although the pain may be temporary at least there is some pain.The customer will always bear the cost to the corporation.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
“You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis
Charter Member
Utah, the state, is actively fighting the retreat of the coal industry. So, we're still investing to keep the mines open and going. My wife is from a coal-mining town (Price, Utah) and knows how tough it is to make it there. Things got so bad there that the town she was born in, East Carbon, was disincorporated in the 70s. Her father, one of the wisest men I ever knew, was a long-wall engineer who worked all over the West in his day. When in the Army, he was part of a contingent Douglas MacArthur took to Japan to modernize it.
Hunter
I don't care if it hurts. I want to have control. I want a perfect body. I want a perfect soul. - Creep by Radiohead
Charter Member
What is a long wall engineer? The only long walls I know of connected Athens to Piraeus and were built around 450 BC.
Charter Member
They tore down the coal plant in Paqe. Not sure what will happen to the coal mine in Kayenta ???
Registered Member
Black Mesa mine (K-town) is shut down and the railroad to Page is being reclaimed. The plant itself is gone except for a gigantic pile of huge parts and pieces.
Don’t forget that the Black Mesa mine also provided coal to the plant in Laughlin via a slurry pipeline. That was the cause of the original water disputes. The plant in Laughlin is long gone and I believe the pipeline is abandoned.
Next up are the Four Corners plant (APS) and the San Juan plant (PNM) across the road. The associated mines will also close (one owned outright by the Navajo Nation). All of this within about a decade.
The economic impact to the Navajo’s particularly is extreme, as coal royalties (negotiated by the government as their “trustee”) were the largest source of revenue to the tribe (not counting government assistance). If somebody doesn’t come up with a plan for them pdq, their society will deteriorate further. Coal vs green is a highly contentious local issue as you can imagine.
The air here will always smell like coal and methane as it occurs naturally. When you are fly fishing the San Juan you see fissures expelling gas all over the bedrock riverbottom. The people who don’t live here say our visibility is better, but I can’t tell any difference and all I do all day is to stare off at the landscape.
"Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.
don"
Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Charter Member
I understand the issue is always "green" in the arguments---but the green is not environmental green it is money green---the economic viability of coal plants simply isn't in their favor.Coal vs green is a highly contentious local issue as you can imagine.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
“You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis
Registered Member
Well, if green power were required to fund their “reclamation “ instead of being subsidized, I doubt it would be viable either.
Used to be a time when a broken bottle sparkling on the desert was all we would see. Now look at it. Where’s the money to fix the wholesale environmental destruction solar is causing?
"Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.
don"
Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Charter Member
It's a desert. It isn't a destination. People drive across it to get where they want to go, they don't live there. Ask Sam Kinison.
It isn't any good for anything. I'm fine with covering it with solar panels. Forests, mountains - different altogether. Stuff lives in a forest. People relax there. Animals that are not bugs or snakes live there. The desert has scorpions, alkali water holes, rattlesnakes, Gila monsters, unbearable heat and no water. No redeeming features, so put it to some use.
Registered Member
Kevin, I hope that was sarcasm. Unfortunately the majority agrees with you. That doesn’t make it right.
"Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.
don"
Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Charter Member
Yep. 'Twas sarcasm. Same arguments could be made about where I live. I hate seeing the natural beauty of this country not valued by people.
Charter Member
You are making a poor case Curt---the decline of coal power plants is far more an issue of poor economics compared to gas turbines with lower cost fuel and far lower fixed cost of the plants. It continues to amaze me that the reality behind these closings remains shrouded in politically based fantasy.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
“You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis
Registered Member
I’m not arguing for coal. I’m acknowledging the demographic issues arising from the shift to green energy. And Im stating my opinion that the marketplace is being manipulated by politicians choosing the winners and losers. All the links to MSNBC stories in the world wont change that opinion, based solely on my firsthand experience.
I don’t have the energy or desire to debate the issue.
"Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.
don"
Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas
The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
Charter Member
If you care to learn the facts from a economic model, I have written about it extensively here. I have no interest in repeating them.
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
“You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis
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