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Thread: 19,361

  1. #1
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    19,361

    It has been a while since we had a meaningful discussion about guns. Last year, there were 19,361 intentional deaths in the US (excluding suicide) where a gun was used. There were 1454 reported defensive shootings. There were 39,424 injuries. There were 2,280 unintentional shootings. Suicides by gun were 24,156.

    There were 611 killed in mass shootings, but that definition is a bit up for grabs.

    I know all the usual arguments but I'd like to see what people think about this question:

    Is there a problem here that needs to be solved? To me, the main statistics are 19,361 deaths and 39,424 injuries. Mass shootings are not as common as people think, so I suspect the question revolves around how you view the stats on intentional deaths and injuries.

    I am not looking to reargue anything; everyone is pretty entrenched. Just this question - is there a problem here to be solved or not. First principles, as Marcus Aurelius says.

  2. #2
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    Ah... this topic reminds me of some good past discussions we've all had. After participating in many of those, I've changed my path regarding firearms. I've reached a point wherein I think the individual needs to decide how, when and where firearms should be used. Of course, that does not entail breaking the law or seeking entitlements.

    In the USA I think we've done an excellent job of marshaling statistical data on deaths. What we're lacking are statistics on life - specifically, what role do firearms play in keeping people safe? We do see some mention of times a firearm potentially saved lives - but they aren't fully calculated. If I may, I'll put forth the concept that most of our members who do carry, do so to promote their safety - not to take safety away from others.

    The above is one of the reasons I now believe it's not my place to determine what others do with their firearms. But, I can control my use of them.

    Hunter
    I don't care if it hurts. I want to have control. I want a perfect body. I want a perfect soul. - Creep by Radiohead

  3. #3
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    So that's a no on whether there is a problem to be solved collectively. You see it as an individual problem. Interesting.

    In response to your question on keeping people alive, there were 1454 defensive shootings last year.

    Is there any point at which you would change your perspective and view it as a problem that needs to be solved collectively? We reached that with automobiles and transportation. Seat belts, collapsible steering wheels, crumple zones. I guess what I'm getting at is that this whole issue has been approached via a possession issue, which makes the bar pretty high when deciding if there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

    But for me, I'd like to approach it as a safety issue and see what can be done in that arena. That's a lower bar for thinking of this as a problem to be solved.

  4. #4
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    I suppose it depends on how many of the 19,361 had it coming. I bet it was more than 1454. Hell, didn’t the cops shoot more black guys than that?
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  5. #5
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    He had it comin'
    He had it comin'
    He only had himself to blame
    If you'd have been there
    If you'd have seen it

    I betcha you would have done the same

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    .......In response to your question on keeping people alive, there were 1454 defensive shootings last year........
    The missing data is how many crimes against persons or property were prevented by the presence of the weapon? That's something I doubt we will ever know, but I have no doubt that it is a big number.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  7. #7
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    Likely so. I live a long ways from police protection. I'm thoroughly against someone deciding their theoretical need for safety outweighs my demonstrable one.

    I can't think of anyone out here that doesn't have a gun, at least in their home, for exactly the reason you list.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Likely so. I live a long ways from police protection..........
    The police can not protect you. They are too few and spread too thin for that. If you are fortunate enough to be able to report an in-progress crime before you are victimized, the response time is likely to be too long to be of any protection. Most often, by the time the police arrive the deed is done. They take a report and hope to catch the already departed criminal at a later time.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  9. #9
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    Underaged people shouldn't possess guns. People with mental issues should not possess guns. Criminals convicted of violent crimes especially those that involve the use of a gun should not possess guns. Guns should not be possessed in certain areas such as airports, courthouses, , schools and other places of similar nature. Those that possess handguns should be deemed suitable by local law enforcement for a determination to be made as to whether they qualify to carry a handgun and those that do qualify should be issued a permit to carry the gun and those that don't should not be issued a permit. Anyone purchasing a firearm should have to be checked through a National Database under the authority of the ATF to determine if they have committed any crimes or any information that would deem them unsuitable to possess a gun. If deemed appropriate that they can buy a gun then that gun must be transferred to the owner through a licensed federal firearms dealer under the supervision of the ATF.
    All of these laws mentioned above are already on the books. It would be interesting to see how many of the people that died by guns that conform with the above stated laws. It's not a gun issue to me it's an Enforcement issue of the existing laws.
    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honda View Post
    .......It's not a gun issue to me it's an Enforcement issue of the existing laws......
    AMEN!
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  11. #11
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    In addition to the fact that the police usually can not protect you, the SCOTUS and other federal courts have ruled that police do not have a duty to protect anyone. Surprised? So was I. I always thought that was my job.

    So, if we are responsible for our own safety, it follows that we are allowed the means to protect ourselves.
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    In addition to the fact that the police usually can not protect you, the SCOTUS and other federal courts have ruled that police do not have a duty to protect anyone. Surprised? So was I. I always thought that was my job.

    So, if we are responsible for our own safety, it follows that we are allowed the means to protect ourselves.
    Excellent point.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  13. #13
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    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  14. #14
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    I don't think that anyone should assume logic plays a large role in jurisprudence.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    I don't think that anyone should assume logic plays a large role in jurisprudence.
    That just might be the best statement I have ever heard!
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

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