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Thread: Coal Reparations

  1. #1
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    Coal Reparations

    The salvation of rural communities in coal country. Could it be time to pay the piper for that cheap energy? I know Prez Nez....his people are depending on him to win this.

    Navajo look to Arizona utilities to make up for coal losses

    FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – As the coal industry nears its end on the Navajo Nation, the tribe is looking to Arizona utilities that shared in the power generated on the reservation to help make up for the financial losses and environmental impacts.

    Navajo leaders have requested nearly $62 million in an ongoing rate case for Tucson Electric Power to establish a fund to support renewable energy projects. The tribe also wants a commitment from utilities to buy the power and support for water infrastructure.

    The appeal could extend to another major state utility and aid other eastern Arizona communities that have long-relied on revenue from coal.

    “Coal communities should be provided financial resources for their historical contributions to economic development and to help transition into new, low-carbon work,” Navajo President Jonathan Nez and Vice President Myron Lizer wrote to the Arizona Corporation Commission.

    Coal-fired power plants and mines have been huge economic drivers in the Four Corners for decades. The Navajo Generating Station near Page and its feed mine shut down last year. The San Juan Generating Station near Farmington is scheduled to shutter in 2022 and the nearby Four Corners Power Plant in 2031.

    Nez told tribal lawmakers gathered in Window Rock for their winter session this week to curb spending because of an expected $30 million to $50 million revenue shortfall from the Navajo Generating Station alone.

    Tucson Electric doesn’t operate any of the power plants in the Four Corners. Utility spokesman Joseph Barrios said Tuesday it supports transition efforts for impacted communities but wouldn’t adopt a position without agreement from the other owners.

    “Given our minority ownership interest and the complexity of potential legal issues, we defer to the plant operators to coordinate specific negotiations,” he wrote in an email. “We support a coordinated approach to ensure consistent and fair negotiations that balance the interests of all stakeholders.”

    The Navajo Nation is not an intervenor in the Tucson Electric rate case, meaning it cannot participate in administrative proceedings to determine the outcome. But the Arizona Corporation Commission can factor in the tribe’s comments that were submitted ahead of a Tuesday public hearing into the final decision.

    Commission Chairman Bob Burns said the time is ripe to consider the future of communities where utilities are accelerating the closure of coal-fired power plants, and the commission will be looking for wide-ranging input.

    The tribe came to its $61.8 million request to establish a transition fund by multiplying the megawatts Tucson Electric owned in three power plants by $100,000. It’s a workable standard that could be applied to other Arizona utilities that have owned a share in those plants, and takes into account environmental and health impacts in local communities, the tribe said.

    No more than half the funding should come from ratepayers, the tribe said while asking first that shareholders cover it. Tribal leaders, coal workers, environmentalists, utility planners and other government officials should decide how the money is spent, Nez and Lizer wrote.

    The tribe also requested help to extend power and running water to Navajos who have lived in the shadow of power plants, support to acquire water rights in the Colorado River basin, money to build pipelines and a commitment from the utilities to buy power from tribal facilities.

    The Salt River Project, another major utility that operated the Navajo Generating Station, isn’t regulated by the Arizona Corporation. It is working with the tribe on renewable energy projects and retraining opportunities for workers.

    Navajo environmental groups have made requests similar to that of the Navajo leadership in rate cases for Arizona Public Service Co. and for Tucson Electric, though at a smaller scale. Jessica Keetso of To Nizhoni Ani said the groups welcome the additional support.

    “It’s the least utilities can do because they’ve taken so much of our resources and our raw material, and that’s all we’re asking for, to help communities, especially the impacted communities to diversity their economy, to help with general funding of the Navajo Nation,” she said.

    Members of the Arizona Corporation Commission told Arizona Public Service Co. last year that it should be prepared to propose a transition fund for affected communities in its next rate case.

    APS spokeswoman Lily Quezada said Tuesday the utility is participating in economic development forums in the Four Corners region, and would be transparent and open in its plans to help ease the transition.

    In New Mexico, lawmakers in 2019 approved landmark legislation clearing the way for the state’s main investor-owned utility to divest itself from a coal-fired power plant and guide new investments in renewable energy.

    The law aims to ease the economic pains of closing the San Juan Generating Station by allowing the power plant owners to sell bonds to recover investments and fund an estimated $40 million in assistance for displaced workers and economic development programs.

    Utility customers will pay off the bonds, and the state will manage funds set up to aid job training and other programs in the affected communities.
    http://https://the-journal.com/artic...or-coal-losses
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

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  2. #2
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    I'm not sure I understand this. The Indians sold power generated by them using their coal. Now that the coal generated power is no longer wanted the utilities should pay the Indians millions? Why is that?

    I have nothing against Native Americans, in fact I believe we did them great wrongs. But this seems like a shakedown. Am I missing something?
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

  3. #3
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    The power plants are owned by the utilities. The coal was owned by the Indians and the royalties were negotiated by the Feds (Interior Dept) on behalf of the Tribes as their "trustee". You could easily make the argument the Govt should have forseen this and should have been funding economic security through the royalties.

    My question is how are the rest of us going to to pay for our cheap energy. Don't forget that these Govt negotiated royalties cannot help but have had some influence on the price of coal across the USA.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  4. #4
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    Everybody has their hands out and not the least of the bunch are the “renewable” industries that are squeezing out the coal industry. So, we are asked to pay the old mousetrap maker again for the stuff replaced by the new mousetrap maker, plus subsidize the new one too. Great economic model here.
    ...............
    “You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out.” — Too fundamental to have an attribution


  5. #5
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    My Squaw has her hands out and gets something in them, how ever she's retired and now works with little bucks and squaws cooking for there kindergarten school lunch.
    Old redneck hillbilly borned and raised on a redwood stump.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacojoe View Post
    Everybody has their hands out and not the least of the bunch are the “renewable” industries that are squeezing out the coal industry. So, we are asked to pay the old mousetrap maker again for the stuff replaced by the new mousetrap maker, plus subsidize the new one too. Great economic model here.
    Yup. The end to the aggrieved parties is nowhere in sight. Next up, Appalachia.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CactusCurt View Post
    Yup. The end to the aggrieved parties is nowhere in sight. Next up, Appalachia.
    Totally agree, of course there will never not be an aggrieved party.
    We could feed Appalachia for a tenth of what we give to other countries, 1% of if you also counted private industry. And yes I think we ought to feed our own people before we feed the world, and I think our people should all have indoor plumbing and good water first. And most of all I believe people ought to get off their lazy ass and feed themselves instead of crying for somebody else to do it but that isn't going to happen so feed the lazy bastards here first.
    This is your mind on drugs!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacojoe View Post
    Everybody has their hands out and not the least of the bunch are the “renewable” industries that are squeezing out the coal industry. So, we are asked to pay the old mousetrap maker again for the stuff replaced by the new mousetrap maker, plus subsidize the new one too. Great economic model here.
    You need to find a new whine Joe

    The coal industry is being squeezed out by economics--and there is no mystery with that. Coal fired plants are the least economical to operate and would continue to close for that reason alone. If not for the increase in renewable sources the increase would come in the form of gas--even more gas than currently being used.

    This "theme" of yours reminds me of a saying some years ago: "don't bitch about farmers when your mouth is full". The very real impact of this shift is that power costs have been virtually stagnant for years----that means YOUR cost as well.

    I just checked my records, I am paying one cent less per kWhr now than I paid in Feb of 2010---I'm not going to bitch with my mouth full.
    Last edited by Dave Grubb; 02-16-2020 at 08:51 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  9. #9
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    Point of order. Coal plants are very cheap to operate. The cost of pollution controls is what put them out of business.

    The question is whether we unfairly exploited these people and whether ratepayers should protest what is obviously for the common good.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by CactusCurt View Post
    Point of order. Coal plants are very cheap to operate. The cost of pollution controls is what put them out of business.

    The question is whether we unfairly exploited these people and whether ratepayers should protest what is obviously for the common good.
    Point of order----you are flat wrong

    I have dispelled that more times than I care to recall and I'm not moved to do it again. If you want to support your claim, then present your case. You need go no further than compare the $/BTU from coal and from NG--and then look at the efficiency of each.

    You are drinking far too much kool-aid.

    Anyone wanting to do a little reading can find this article here.:

    But this story is mostly about electricity generation, which accounted for 93% of U.S. coal consumption and 84% of production in 2018. Overall domestic electricity use, after setting a new record in 2018 for the first time since 2007, is down over the first eight months of 2019 thanks to slightly cooler weather. And the shift away from coal in power generation resumed after a lull in 2017, with coal-fired power plant retirements in 2018 nearly breaking the record set in 2015.

    It was exactly this shift that President Trump had pledged to stop — even reverse. He has clearly failed. It’s not for lack of trying: The Environmental Protection Agency has rolled back the Clean Power Plan that the Barack Obama administration drew up to restrict carbon-dioxide emissions by power plants, and the Energy Department tried to force electricity consumers to subsidize coal and nuclear power to keep plants open. The latter effort foundered in part because of a peculiarity of American governance: The members of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission who decide on such matters are presidential appointees, but some have to be Democrats and all are free to go against the president’s wishes without much consequence.

    The overriding issue, though, seems to be that the electrical utility industry just isn’t buying what the president is selling, in part because its leaders assume that future presidents won’t share his head-in-the-sand attitude toward climate change but mainly because burning coal to generate electricity makes less and less economic sense amid a fracking boom that has kept natural gas cheap and technological progress that has driven down the cost of wind and solar. In short, promising a coal revival was a shortsighted, ill-informed and unrealistic thing for the president to do.
    Last edited by Dave Grubb; 02-16-2020 at 09:25 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  11. #11
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    Don't BS me. Renewables aren't evaluated at their true cost, and neither is nukular when we add in the cost of WIPP or Yucca Mountain. And neither is natural gas when we consider the future reparations for fracking.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  12. #12
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    And whats with the "kool aid" wisecrack? This is a societal question that most Americalns cant see coming. And don't sell me the BS that the typical American who lives paycheck to paycheck and $50k in credit card debt can even think one move ahead. I readily admit that I view everything through a very powerful skepticism filter. You seem to view everything politically these days. And yet you deny it.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  13. #13
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    Have to agree with Dave on this. To many thing are changing in this world and using coal isn't one of them. Maybe in the future it'll be viable again and the those that own the minerals will once again be in a position to exploit them.

    Figure the future with better construction in houses and buildings that are saving energy and use of alternate energy may result in a decrease in demand for all types on fuels. Big savings to customers.
    Fred

    "Everyday I beat my own previous record for number of consecutive days I've
    stayed alive."

    'Take care of yourself, and each other.'

  14. #14
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    Curt, I'm not into kicking a dead horse----continue in your fantasy.

    BTW---did you bother reading the article I linked to?
    Last edited by Dave Grubb; 02-16-2020 at 04:38 PM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  15. #15
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    Shutting down the coal plant is going to kill Page.

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