Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: On apprentice programs I agree with trump

  1. #1
    Join Date
    10-22-01
    Location
    All Over
    Posts
    38,196

    On apprentice programs I agree with trump

    As some of you know I have written many articles dealing with apprentiship programs and comparing European education models to the US. I am in full support of developing effective apprenticeship programs.

    Extracted from this morning's WSJ: (partial)

    By Eric Morath
    Nov. 28, 2019 8:00 am ET

    President Trump’s plan to expand apprenticeships into more vocations risks creating a rift with construction workers he is courting for support in next year’s election.

    The administration wants to ease a shortage of skilled workers by allowing employers and business groups to set standards for apprenticeships, which combine on-the-job training with classroom instruction. Currently, standards are set by the Department of Labor, and most apprenticeships are run by trade unions under federal supervision.

    The Trump administration initially won the support of powerful construction unions by promising to exclude the industry from the plan, effectively allowing the unions to maintain control of apprenticeships for carpenters, plumbers and electricians. Instead, the administration said it would focus on sectors such as health care and technology, where apprenticeships are rare.

    But the pledge to exclude construction has been a subject of debate within the administration, according to a person familiar with the deliberations. Now, construction unions and Democrats in Congress are concerned the administration will renege on its promise—a concern heightened by the July departure of Labor Secretary Alexander Acosta, who favored the exclusion.

    The unions, including North America’s Building Trades Unions and the United Brotherhood of Carpenters, see apprenticeships as potent recruiting tools and worry that business-run programs will reduce wages and weaken the quality of training.
    My concern is, that this decision will come down to votes and not the foresight of implementing such a program.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  2. #2
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    Hmmm....not sure I agree. Regardless, I don't see the trade and craft unions letting go of thier programs in favor of one run by the government or a business association. As a vehicle to unionize the tech industry, well this just might work.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    01-21-04
    Location
    Crescent City CA. where the redwoods meet the sea.
    Posts
    15,119
    Back when I got started millwrighting you had to want it bad and work hard learning a lot on your own. Learned my electrical just looking over someones shoulder doing something that interested me.
    Old redneck hillbilly borned and raised on a redwood stump.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    My initial reaction was to be suspicious of the govt involvement in this, and caused me to recoil a little. After thinking it over, I have decided I don't know enough about what "they" have in mind so I will wait and see. This one could be all about the regulations.

    My experience with most apprenticeship programs are the ones run by the unions and mandated on "davis bacon" jobs. We had our own since we were signatory with the guys formerly known as "the Steelworkers". I completely agree that we need these to try to keep a strong bench of craftsmen here in the US. The ones we had that were sanctioned by the govt missed the mark IMO. I'm starting to sound like a broken record

    On balance, I am pro union (because they made my job easier and the only ones I ever had issues with were union leadership and even then I liked the guys).
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    10-22-01
    Location
    All Over
    Posts
    38,196
    To the question of government involvement---most all of us received a major portion or all of our formal education via some government involvement.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  6. #6
    Join Date
    04-29-17
    Posts
    7,516
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    As some of you know I have written many articles dealing with apprentiship programs and comparing European education models to the US. I am in full support of developing effective apprenticeship programs.

    Extracted from this morning's WSJ: (partial)



    My concern is, that this decision will come down to votes and not the foresight of implementing such a program.
    Duh doesn't everything in DC come down to politics, votes.
    OPINION....a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    To the question of government involvement---most all of us received a major portion or all of our formal education via some government involvement.
    You will have to explain that one to me. I suppose if you were a fan of big government and knew me well enough you would say how fortunate I was to receive SS survivors benefits. My dead daddy would take exception to his taxes being characterized as a gift from government.

    My last DOL compliance audit was a nightmare primarily because of government incompetence. Yup, the same folks who are going to magically create these apprenticeship programs (when private industry has sponsored them for decades). I hope it works but I will remain skeptical and hope to remember to come back here to check the progress of this next voluntary mandate.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    10-22-01
    Location
    All Over
    Posts
    38,196
    Did you not go to public schools at some point in your academic career?

    The biggest obstacle to expanding non-union apprenticeship training is first the parents and secondly in a more passive roll, the school councilors. A Federal program could shift a focus on these programs as a viable option---something most kids have no visibility to.

    As for union programs, it varies from local to local. We are affiliated with the Carpenters Union. Our city carpenters are generally trained, our shop local has no training---they look to us to do that---but that doesn't stop them from taking the "industry advancement fund" assessment out of their pays.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  9. #9
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    I would love to hear how big government is going to coerce the tech industry to create an apprenticeship program. Maybe they can look at what Brown and Root was doing 50 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    Did you not go to public schools at some point in your academic career?
    .
    I did but it was not a federal school. I suppose someone got a free lunch, and forced vaccinations, etc ad nauseum.

    That argument is as ridiculous as your implying that people become virtuous when they become employed by government. I will thank the dog catcher that I don't have rabies.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    10-30-01
    Location
    Salt Lake City
    Posts
    30,647
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    ...most all of us received a major portion or all of our formal education via some government involvement.
    Darn straight - for both my wife and I. And, we've tried to steer the next gen into it too.

    Hunter
    I don't care if it hurts. I want to have control. I want a perfect body. I want a perfect soul. - Creep by Radiohead

  11. #11
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    And we rally in defense of the straw man. You guys crack me up.

    There hasn't been a single stitch of evidence presented to justify this new government program and my position is that the DOL isn't exactly an unbiased player. Once again I provide firsthand experience and you gave me what? Google DOL successes! LOL

    When I reached the age when I would decide my carreer path, I went to college and not into some government subsidized welfare program for unions. And I paid full price for it. I resent that I somehow owe my success to the state.
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    10-22-01
    Location
    All Over
    Posts
    38,196
    I'm at a loss why you have taken such offense at this. I will offer this from an article I wrote about 7 years ago. Then I will just leave this alone, I have no intent on creating bad feelings over this
    Saturday, July 21, 2012


    European Style Apprentice Program Succeeds in the USA
    Blum Inc., an Austrian based company with production facilities in North Carolina, in conjunction with Switzerland based Daetwyler Corporation, founded a European style apprentice program in 1995. The program includes a partnership with Central Piedmont Community College, the North Carolina Department of Labor and local public school districts. Today this program includes eight partner companies and 27 local school districts from which the program actively recruits candidates.
    This program requires a significant commitment from the partner companies. Blum estimates the current cost of their program is $160,000 per apprentice for the four year program. After 17 years they remain convinced of the value of that investment to assure the future growth of their business.
    The program is four years in length totaling 8,000 hours, 1600 of which are at Central Piedmont College and 6400 in the apprentice center at Blum. At the conclusion of the program every successful graduate receives an AAS degree from Central Piedmont, a Journeyman’s certificate from the North Carolina Department of Labor and a guarantee of a full time job at a competitive salary—with no contract.
    Adding to the benefit for the participants, they are paid during their four year training and graduate with no student loans.
    While it might seem risky to invest $160,000 in someone’s education with no obligations to remain with Blum, they have experienced a retention rate of 80% of the program’s graduates.
    There are some key elements that help make this program successful that are not outwardly apparent. First is the “sales” effort that the participating companies put into attracting candidates. These companies sell the program to the public schools by working with school counselors, they sell themselves to the parents and they sell themselves to the candidates. They do this via a structured plan. They work directly with the schools to provide information; they speak to potential candidates and invite both the candidates and their parents into their facilities and apprentice centers. Additionally, prospective candidates are invited to enter the program on a trial basis in their senior year and equally divide their time between their high school classes and working in the company.

    The companies also work closely with Central Piedmont College and meet quarterly to assure the curriculum remains relevant and to assure common policies are maintained.

    Blum saw a potential road block that could limit their growth potential and rather than accept that as being out of their control they proactively took action to assure their own future. As increasing numbers of foreign companies pursue manufacturing in the US more similar programs are being established.

    There are choices to be made: we can choose to wring our hands and complain about the lack of skilled workers and the bleak future manufacturing has, or we can choose to take charge of our own future and get involved in changing the status quo.

    These companies did not wait and hope someone else would fix their problem. What are you going to do?
    Last edited by Dave Grubb; 11-30-2019 at 09:35 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  13. #13
    Join Date
    10-21-01
    Location
    Columbia, S.C.
    Posts
    14,620
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Grubb View Post
    I'm at a loss why you have taken such offense at this. I will offer this from an article I wrote about 7 years ago. Then I will just leave this alone, I have no intent on creating bad feelings over this
    That's completely different than the US government setting up and installing a program, your example is a winner. It's a private industry that will make it work or not IMO. I think you and Curt are both right I don't think your both on the same page.
    I'm against unions but when I started to work big construction with Daniel you started at the bottom unless you were somebody's brother. (Nepotism) I made Journeyman but it took 7? years and that was done without the unions, your pay went up as you did. When you moved on to another Daniel job you didn't start at Journeyman unless you had the card from Daniel that said you were. Down here in the south everyone has 25 years experience just ask them, that gets you $10 bucks an hour any more. Being union would fix that problem but to me unions create more problems than it solves.
    This is your mind on drugs!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    04-23-02
    Location
    SW Colorado
    Posts
    4,959
    I was angry about the prospect of yet MORE government. Im all about the notion of taxpayers helping taxpayers but it seems like the only entity that is ultimately helped is goverment. We don't need the government adding a shipping and handling charge to every aspect of our lives. We can't afford it.

    Big government bad - bigger government worse
    "Back after 5 years. I thought you had died.

    don"


    Splitting my time between the montane and the mesas

    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    10-14-01
    Location
    TEXAS!
    Posts
    14,571
    Quote Originally Posted by CactusCurt View Post
    ....... We don't need the government adding a shipping and handling charge to every aspect of our lives. We can't afford it.

    Big government bad - bigger government worse
    Agree!
    The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible - Arthur C. Clarke

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •