Socialism - Discuss

[CactusCurt]

There are many personal reasons that move me to be against socialism but I still am driven by a need for factual evidence. And therein lies the conundrum---show me the proof

What I found out in doing this research is that the US scores well down in the ratings for such things as unemployment, life expectancy, et al. In every measure I could think of, relating to a quality of life, the countries that I regard as more socialistic than the US scored higher than we do.

It would be much easier to align myself closer to Joe---if only I could find some factual evidence to do that.

Indian Tribes are probably the most socialist sub systems in America and the medical statistics and associated quality of life measures are terrible (gaming probably changed that but the verdict was still out when I left that world). The Indian Health Service has all the stats you could ever want. Our government doesnt do socialism well.

[Dave Grubb]

Our government doesnt do socialism well.

So, are you saying the problem is not an inherit one in socialism but caused this case by our own ineptness?

BTW---I am not arguing---anyone who has driven through an Indian reservation intuitively knows something isn't working out according to the plan.

[CactusCurt]

So, are you saying the problem is not an inherit one in socialism but caused this case by our own ineptness?

For the sake of this discussion, yes. There is never an honest assessment of these programs' performance. I am specifically not talking about the military.

[Dave Grubb]

For the sake of this discussion, yes. There is never an honest assessment of these programs' performance. I am specifically not talking about the military.

I agree with you.

[wacojoe]

As has been pointed out, Socialism, or Collectivism as I prefer to call it (The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.), encompasses numerous forms and degrees. The classical definitions have long been superseded. Only the most extreme forms hang on to the concept of “the state owning and controlling the means of production.” Their failures are so complete and known as to make discussion of that category unnecessary here. Even most collectivist and hardcore Leftists understand actual government control and operation of production is beyond their capacities due to inherent waste, inefficiencies and shear incompetencies of state monopolies as they have proven. No competition; no innovation; no growth = no good. In such systems, the scum will always rise and form at the top. As I say, even the Lefties can recognize the deficiencies, thus they have moved on to what I coin as “Directivism,” which is described as the state allowing private ownership, but the state at the same time directs through rules/regulations/statutes/bureaucracies/contracts control of what was formerly relatively free operation of key driving production and industry. In our country and many others this has taken the form of extensive imposition of laws and regulation requiring non-state owned businesses to submit to requirements pertaining to employee hiring/firing/discipline/remuneration/health/promotion/you-name-it. The list of state interferences in what businesses can and cannot produce and how they can do it is too long to start to catalogue here. This Directivism now falls under the rubric of what people now call “Socialism,” and rightfully so. Its continuous growth and expansion into our existence is what conservatives dread and oppose in principle. It is a part of what our ancestors rebelled against while fighting for “liberty.”

lib·er·ty (lĭb′ər-tē)
n. pl. lib·er·ties
1. The condition of being free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.
2.
a. The condition of being free from oppressive restriction or control by a government or other power.
b. A right to engage in certain actions without control or interference by a government or other power: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.
3. The right or power to act as one chooses...

All that being said, no reasonable person would deny government has a decided place in all societies. There must be rules to control our baser instincts and proclivities, those to keep the strong off the weak, provide for the common defense & infrastructure and those elements are justifiably confronted by collect actions by government. Beyond those few legitimate areas upon which government force must be exerted there is constant clash as the state and its allies seek to expand. There seems to be a natural law that everything left to its proclivities wants to get bigger until it explodes.

"Capitalism" with its unfettered choice of barter and obligation of responsibility to do so wisely or suffer failure is the purist form of freedom and liberty short of anarchy. Every form of governmental policy below that extracts freedom as its price.

Collectivism in all its forms devolves to theft at some point.
Any economic system failing to recognize and employ individuals' basic motivational necessity of self-interest, like all species of collectivism are want to do, are doomed to ultimate failure after it burns off what it can initially steal from legitimate producers and owners. The more radical the effort to disprove that axiom, the faster and more brutal the proof of it.

There is one thing that all species of Collectivism have in common: a shared disbelief in the value of property rights and a devotion to state theft of that which they ostensibly despise but seek to collect and redistribute - private property. In essence, Collectivism beyond its essentials is theft.

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"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority.... There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it." - H. L. Mencken

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"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus

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“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” — attributed to George Washington

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"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master." - Ayn Rand

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"...I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave." - H.L. Mencken

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The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop. - P. J. O'Roark

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My most earnest prayer: Lord, save me from those promising to make my life better and wresting the power to do it, Amen.

[wacojoe]

Maybe we should all just relax or so says the NYT. How can I read this and consider them a serious new source?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/o...=tw-nytopinion

Almost makes me want to jump on a boat and seek a two bedroom hovel apartment in Paris where I can get all those cradle-to-the-grave goodies from the command&control government in the EU. Trouble is, I hate being commanded & controlled by some hoard of bureaucrat nitwits.

[UTAH]

Food for thought: Capitalism and Socialism are both integral parts of our economic system. And, they aren't mutually exclusive. We've made both work well together, in spite of their differences. In fact, I'll go as far to say that we're one of the largest and most successful countries doing it.

Hunter