Socialism - Discuss

[UTAH]

Examining Socialism at the individual level may be entertaining, but it is not our reality. Even the ancient Romans understood the need to distribute Fire and Public Safety needs under a collective system - rather than rely upon individuals. What we may want to discuss is, at what levels do we accept or reject collective/socialistic systems?

Hunter

[wacojoe]

Axiom —
Everything government giveth must first be taketh from someone elseth.
Whatever government giveth, it can taketh back, as it inevitably musteth.

[mgrist]

If ever listen to the political documentaries, any of the super-rich pretty much say we need to raise the taxes on the rich. There was a rich guy on 60 minutes within the last month, it was recorded on the DVR and I didn't look at when it was recorded but he was adamant about raising the taxes on the rich, he then went into why giving the rich a tax break was ludicrous. He said he and the others,"Gates, Buffet, etc spend a lot of time trying how to get it right. That theory is socialism, redistribution of wealth.
Feeding and housing and paying the homeless, the lazy to stay that way is socialism. Government employees with their healthcare for life for four years of work along with their S.S.? from beginning untill the end.., Companies that are to big to fail. Disability pay for life because your an alcoholic. People that are cured and still collecting. I could go on and on but we are closer to socialists than the socialists.
I guess there are about a hundred million capitalists out there until they need the courts to file bankruptcy. We, of course, like you said we need fire, police, sewers, etc... Assuming im on the right track we're way past the line of capitalism and socialism. I think we've gone way too far to make amends to say I'm sorry. The Mexicans still want to get here, that's because there is work, we just don't want to do it. Cradle to grave welfare is another goldmine that needs to go. That's socialism also.

[CactusCurt]

Before we can discuss are we talking about pure socialism, democratic socialism, authoritative socialism, or a social democracy. The term I hear thrown about most by the current Democratic candidates seems to be democratic socialism. The reason I ask the question is that there are major differences between the varying types of socialism.

So are some better than others or are they all still bad? I thought the definition of a "democratic socialist" is someone who prefers to vote for a living rather than work?

[UTAH]

Nice work on this one, boys. I think I may need to increase my hours of sleep - as it works out well when I do.

In some ways, we've seen Socialism active in this issue - where some members have become excellent at weighing needs and taking appropriate action if necessary. It is appreciated and the results are respected.

Hunter

[CactusCurt]

Im not quite 60 but it seems to me we have become more socialist In those years - and i have given up thinking its stoppable. I suppose that would be proved by looking at how social welfare spending has increased in our budget. Or at the number of socialist candidates in our elections.

I see no option but to socialize medecine. The govt has interfered in the marketplace to the point that its broken and wont be fixed piecemeal. I think it will hurt innovation and quality. Guns will follow someday when the masses determine our piecemeal approach to keeping them away from criminals and misfits is broken and they vote the final solution.

Wasnt it Lenin who said the ultimate goal of socialism is communism? I dont folow world events but is there a modern example of socialism maturing to communism? Venezuela mebbe

One thing is for sure - im possibly the least engaged person on the board and have no business above decks..

[Truckman]

Even the ancient Romans understood the need to distribute Fire and Public Safety needs under a collective system

I don't suppose I ever considered public safety as a socialistic concept, but in thinking about it, I can see how it could be classified as such...It's why we have a "public" at all, and not just many individuals living as best they can...Some aspects of socialism are not only useful in a closely banded community, but even necessary...

It's when an individual, or a group of like-minded power-mongers decide they can sell an expanded version of the collective society to the gullible public, while retaining the power to implement it, and removing individual freedoms as the cost of security, that it becomes an onerous burden rather than a common necessity......Ben

[Dave Grubb]

There are many personal reasons that move me to be against socialism but I still am driven by a need for factual evidence. And therein lies the conundrum---show me the proof.

Looking at all the countries in the world and examining the data leads me to be unable to draw an obvious conclusion as to the desired negative impact of socialism. Look at the facts on your own ( here is just one measure ) albeit inclusive of a number of factors.

What I found out in doing this research is that the US scores well down in the ratings for such things as unemployment, life expectancy, et al. In every measure I could think of, relating to a quality of life, the countries that I regard as more socialistic than the US scored higher than we do.

It would be much easier to align myself closer to Joe---if only I could find some factual evidence to do that.

In closing---so Joe, my friend---show me the facts---help me out here

[CactusCurt]

There are many personal reasons that move me to be against socialism but I still am driven by a need for factual evidence. And therein lies the conundrum---show me the proof

What I found out in doing this research is that the US scores well down in the ratings for such things as unemployment, life expectancy, et al. In every measure I could think of, relating to a quality of life, the countries that I regard as more socialistic than the US scored higher than we do.

It would be much easier to align myself closer to Joe---if only I could find some factual evidence to do that.

Indian Tribes are probably the most socialist sub systems in America and the medical statistics and associated quality of life measures are terrible (gaming probably changed that but the verdict was still out when I left that world). The Indian Health Service has all the stats you could ever want. Our government doesnt do socialism well.

[Dave Grubb]

Our government doesnt do socialism well.

So, are you saying the problem is not an inherit one in socialism but caused this case by our own ineptness?

BTW---I am not arguing---anyone who has driven through an Indian reservation intuitively knows something isn't working out according to the plan.

[CactusCurt]

So, are you saying the problem is not an inherit one in socialism but caused this case by our own ineptness?

For the sake of this discussion, yes. There is never an honest assessment of these programs' performance. I am specifically not talking about the military.

[Dave Grubb]

For the sake of this discussion, yes. There is never an honest assessment of these programs' performance. I am specifically not talking about the military.

I agree with you.

[wacojoe]

As has been pointed out, Socialism, or Collectivism as I prefer to call it (The principles or system of ownership and control of the means of production and distribution by the people collectively, usually under the supervision of a government.), encompasses numerous forms and degrees. The classical definitions have long been superseded. Only the most extreme forms hang on to the concept of “the state owning and controlling the means of production.” Their failures are so complete and known as to make discussion of that category unnecessary here. Even most collectivist and hardcore Leftists understand actual government control and operation of production is beyond their capacities due to inherent waste, inefficiencies and shear incompetencies of state monopolies as they have proven. No competition; no innovation; no growth = no good. In such systems, the scum will always rise and form at the top. As I say, even the Lefties can recognize the deficiencies, thus they have moved on to what I coin as “Directivism,” which is described as the state allowing private ownership, but the state at the same time directs through rules/regulations/statutes/bureaucracies/contracts control of what was formerly relatively free operation of key driving production and industry. In our country and many others this has taken the form of extensive imposition of laws and regulation requiring non-state owned businesses to submit to requirements pertaining to employee hiring/firing/discipline/remuneration/health/promotion/you-name-it. The list of state interferences in what businesses can and cannot produce and how they can do it is too long to start to catalogue here. This Directivism now falls under the rubric of what people now call “Socialism,” and rightfully so. Its continuous growth and expansion into our existence is what conservatives dread and oppose in principle. It is a part of what our ancestors rebelled against while fighting for “liberty.”

lib·er·ty (lĭb′ər-tē)
n. pl. lib·er·ties
1. The condition of being free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor.
2.
a. The condition of being free from oppressive restriction or control by a government or other power.
b. A right to engage in certain actions without control or interference by a government or other power: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.
3. The right or power to act as one chooses...

All that being said, no reasonable person would deny government has a decided place in all societies. There must be rules to control our baser instincts and proclivities, those to keep the strong off the weak, provide for the common defense & infrastructure and those elements are justifiably confronted by collect actions by government. Beyond those few legitimate areas upon which government force must be exerted there is constant clash as the state and its allies seek to expand. There seems to be a natural law that everything left to its proclivities wants to get bigger until it explodes.

"Capitalism" with its unfettered choice of barter and obligation of responsibility to do so wisely or suffer failure is the purist form of freedom and liberty short of anarchy. Every form of governmental policy below that extracts freedom as its price.

Collectivism in all its forms devolves to theft at some point.
Any economic system failing to recognize and employ individuals' basic motivational necessity of self-interest, like all species of collectivism are want to do, are doomed to ultimate failure after it burns off what it can initially steal from legitimate producers and owners. The more radical the effort to disprove that axiom, the faster and more brutal the proof of it.

There is one thing that all species of Collectivism have in common: a shared disbelief in the value of property rights and a devotion to state theft of that which they ostensibly despise but seek to collect and redistribute - private property. In essence, Collectivism beyond its essentials is theft.

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"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority.... There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." - Daniel Webster

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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it." - H. L. Mencken

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"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." - Albert Camus

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“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” — attributed to George Washington

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"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master." - Ayn Rand

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"...I believe that any man who takes the liberty of another into his keeping is bound to become a tyrant, and that any man who yields up his liberty, in however slight the measure, is bound to become a slave." - H.L. Mencken

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The mystery of government is not how Washington works but how to make it stop. - P. J. O'Roark

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My most earnest prayer: Lord, save me from those promising to make my life better and wresting the power to do it, Amen.

[wacojoe]

Maybe we should all just relax or so says the NYT. How can I read this and consider them a serious new source?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/o...=tw-nytopinion

Almost makes me want to jump on a boat and seek a two bedroom hovel apartment in Paris where I can get all those cradle-to-the-grave goodies from the command&control government in the EU. Trouble is, I hate being commanded & controlled by some hoard of bureaucrat nitwits.

[UTAH]

Food for thought: Capitalism and Socialism are both integral parts of our economic system. And, they aren't mutually exclusive. We've made both work well together, in spite of their differences. In fact, I'll go as far to say that we're one of the largest and most successful countries doing it.

Hunter