Der Zeitgeist

[Kevin]

Going on record here:

If anyone recalls a few years back, I was exercised about gay rights. It led to some acrimonious discussions. Not all of them were in keeping with the spirit of this site and for that, I apologize to one and all but especially to Mike.

I want to point out, though, that two years after those discussions, gay marriage became a Constitutionally-protected right. What most here failed to understand was that there had been a fundamental shift in thinking. Gay rights aren't just a legal question. Attitudes in the general population about being gay had changed from when I was a young man (and homosexual behavior was illegal) to being considered within what we consider "normal". Finding a right to gay marriage in the Constitution was just an outgrowth of that process. People just would not consider denying regular approval to gays any more.

That's why no matter what the present Supreme Court says about the gay rights cases moving through the system, you will see being gay as protected as being black or female or whatever.

Second prediction:

We have witnessed the birth of a movement with the MeToo folks. Every movement has a moment and this is the moment against sexual harassment. There will be excesses along the way and people will be hurt needlessly but that is the same with any movement. It isn't pretty but it is final.

Anyone who remembers the civil rights movement or the anti-war movement of the 1960s should be able to see how this will play out with gay rights and sexual harassment. It is happening again.

Third prediction:

I was serious about the MeToo moment and Parkland. Parkland and its aftermath, with Florida lawmakers shutting down debate before the survivors arrived at the capitol, with conservatives engaging in personal destruction of some of the leaders of the student movement, with the NRA being seen as obstructionist instead of trying to solve the issue - it isn't going to be pretty but you are seeing the birth of another movement.

Young people will take note about who did what to protect them and any victories by obstructionists will be fleeting. It may take a few years and the progress will not be smooth but these children will have their way.

The trick is not to rail against the incoming tide but float with it and make sure the ship of state goes into a harbor you can live with.

Because the world is changing.

[Billy_Rightwing]

Duh! when you get my age you've seen a lot of changes. I'm kinda proud to have never complained about any of the changes, just like roll with the punches.

[Kevin]

You've never complained about the changes?

So you are just fine with gays having complete civil rights (which would mean that they cannot be refused service by, oh, say bakers that don't want to make a wedding cake for them) or maybe an entire class of firearms being banned?

Pretty liberal outlook there.

[Honda]

You've never complained about the changes?

So you are just fine with gays having complete civil rights (which would mean that they cannot be refused service by, oh, say bakers that don't want to make a wedding cake for them) or maybe an entire class of firearms being banned?

Pretty liberal outlook there.

Surely you are not implying that having someone bake you a cake is a civil right.

[Kevin]

Being refused service by a commercial vendor because of your sexual orientation will soon go the way of refusals for being black.

Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is coming just as assuredly as gay marriage.

[TxMusky]

Surely you are not implying that having someone bake you a cake is a civil right.

Yes and if you refuse it is your job to sue them for every dime thehave and force their business to close. I am still wanting to find a sandwich shop run by muslims and demand a BLT with extra bacon so I too can be rich and famous.

We hashed this one out for weeks, the bakers did not refuse all business to "gay people" they refused to make a cake as it was against their religious beliefs. No big deal and certainly not enough to ruin the bakers lives and close their business. The bakers had served the same two gay customers before without issue.

Straight, white, conservative, religious, gun owners do not have any rights in this "new" USA.

[Kevin]

The analogy you make is false.

If a Muslim-owned shop does not offer something on the menu, then it is not the same as the baker, who DOES offer something for sale but just not to homosexuals. Try another example.

And you aren't getting it - we had the same arguments about gay marriage and people won't tolerate treating homosexuals different than anyone else. Simple as that.

[TxMusky]

I have nothing against gay people, I have friends that are gay. What's the big deal? So just because they are different they think they should be treated special in some way?

That is where we are different, if somebody does not want my business, I will take my business elsewhere....forever. The bakers also served many homosexuals at the bakery shop, many times and had steady customers that were gay. They did not believe that making a gay wedding cake was jiving with their religious beliefs, and they asked that they take that order to another shop right down the road. It is not like they started a campaign to disavow anybody making the cake, just they did not feel comfortable doing it.

SO you think it is okay to ruin a Christian family's live, close down their business and make them pay tens of thousands of dollars for not making a cake? Wow, that is even more harsh than what they did. The church they attend and the Christian religion they believe in does not approve of gay marriage, they were standing up for their beliefs and nothing else. They were not calling names or doing anything that could reasonably be called against the law, they just asked that they get a cake for this particular event elsewhere.

This is actually very sad. Such a small thing being blown all out of proportion and being lied about is the topper.

[Kevin]

Whether you personally choose to take your business elsewhere is irrelevant, Tx. A person should not be forced to and that's what these gays are being told. Substitute "black" for "gay". Should a commercial vendor be allowed to refuse service to blacks? Under any circumstances, religious or artistic? Should a black be told to go to the hotel down the street because they accept "their kind" down there? I grew up with signs all around me that said this was OK to do. The 1964 Civil Rights Act outlawed that and no matter what the Supremes decide on this particular case as a matter of law, within 10 years, it will not matter.

And the reason is those kids that you and others here have such disdain for because they want to be safe at school. THEY don't think being gay is anything abnormal. They've grown up with gays being out, with gays being depicted as having normal human relationships, of seeing gays struggle for acceptance and THEY won't stand for anyone treating gays different. Just like on the issue of climate change, you've lost because a generation is coming that has a whole different way of thinking. Comes the Zeitgeist, baby.

And yeah, if a person decides to violate the law, they get the consequences of the law. That's what comes with calling yourself a law-abiding man, Tx. Comfort yourself by tut tutting about people being lied to. What it comes down to is this: your time is ending.

[TxMusky]

Not "my time" at all, you are making a false statement about an idea you have about me formed in your own mind that does not resemble the way I think at all. Just because you THINK i am that way does not make it so.

I try and get along with everybody, I do not give people more or give them less, depending on their race, or sexual orientation or any other difference. You see that is why people like you, who do judge people are wrong. I judge the person inside the body, if they are a good person it does not matter what the exterior package is. There is good and bad in all of us, using one trait for one group is just as wrong as using race against somebody.

Contrary to your belief, I could not care less if somebody is gay, I do however take notice if they think they should flaunt it or act superior or demand extra attention, all the while trying to explain to me they are the same as everybody else. You want to be considered equal, act like the rest of us. Pretty simple analogy, actually very similar to the "Golden Rule" we all were taught decades ago. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

[TxMusky]

If you posted this thread just as a troll post, to lure people in and then degrade them for the false ideas you have about them I will let this be my last reply.

[Kevin]

Degrade? As far as I can tell, I've disagreed, not degraded.

The inability to distinguish between the two might be a product of the conservative echo chamber. You may need to get out more.

[Kevin]

Not "my time" at all, you are making a false statement about an idea you have about me formed in your own mind that does not resemble the way I think at all. Just because you THINK i am that way does not make it so.

I try and get along with everybody, I do not give people more or give them less, depending on their race, or sexual orientation or any other difference. You see that is why people like you, who do judge people are wrong. I judge the person inside the body, if they are a good person it does not matter what the exterior package is. There is good and bad in all of us, using one trait for one group is just as wrong as using race against somebody.

Contrary to your belief, I could not care less if somebody is gay, I do however take notice if they think they should flaunt it or act superior or demand extra attention, all the while trying to explain to me they are the same as everybody else. You want to be considered equal, act like the rest of us. Pretty simple analogy, actually very similar to the "Golden Rule" we all were taught decades ago. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

It isn't about how you personally treat others and I believe you when you say you don't have a problem with gays. "You" is being used in a collective sense.

And all the gays who were looking for a wedding cake were doing was asking to be treated as the bakers treated others. That's my point, Tx.

[TxMusky]

Thank you Kev for clearing the "you" problem up. People have a reason for many things they do and it sometimes hurts feelings. Say a mother does not want her kids to play with a certain family's children because they do not have the same kind of rules that her family enforces. Say they get to stay out late or watch R rated movies regularly, Mom A does not want her kids out late so they will not be tempted to get into mischief and she does like the language or violence in R rated movies. It does not mean that she thinks that family is bad or not good enough to run with her kids, it just means her beliefs are different, thats all.

Same with the bakers, they sold the gay community all sorts of cakes and goodies from their store before. This time they refused to make the cake because it went against their beliefs, nothing more. Now instead of being like everybody else and taking their business elsewhere, the gay couple decided to ruin the lives and business of the bakers because they wanted them to believe as they did. The bakers did not try to "convert" the gay couple at all. Why couldn't the gays just go down the street, order their cake, and never darken the door of that bakery again. To simple, maybe hatred forced them to destroy another family because of THEIR beliefs?

Hatred and disgusting behavior run in all kinds of people, not just in white Christians.

[Kevin]

Thank you Kev for clearing the "you" problem up. People have a reason for many things they do and it sometimes hurts feelings. Say a mother does not want her kids to play with a certain family's children because they do not have the same kind of rules that her family enforces. Say they get to stay out late or watch R rated movies regularly, Mom A does not want her kids out late so they will not be tempted to get into mischief and she does like the language or violence in R rated movies. It does not mean that she thinks that family is bad or not good enough to run with her kids, it just means her beliefs are different, thats all.

Same with the bakers, they sold the gay community all sorts of cakes and goodies from their store before. This time they refused to make the cake because it went against their beliefs, nothing more. Now instead of being like everybody else and taking their business elsewhere, the gay couple decided to ruin the lives and business of the bakers because they wanted them to believe as they did. The bakers did not try to "convert" the gay couple at all. Why couldn't the gays just go down the street, order their cake, and never darken the door of that bakery again. To simple, maybe hatred forced them to destroy another family because of THEIR beliefs?

Hatred and disgusting behavior run in all kinds of people, not just in white Christians.

If the bakers refused service to one class of people, then that class is NOT being treated the same as everyone else. Blacks in Georgia were told to take their business elsewhere and the CRA was passed to force bigots to treat blacks just as they treated everyone else. The same is coming for people who want to discriminate against gays, such as by refusing them service.

The gays here don't ask that the baker believe as they do, just that the bakers treat them as they treat everyone else. Private beliefs are your own business but commerce is transacted in the public realm and that means that public, not private, mores are involved.

No one has the right to claim a religious exemption to allow bigotry and discrimination. Can a Catholic doctor refuse to assist a Protestant patient? Should Loyola Chicago refuse to admit Jews?

For a long time, it was a religious belief that blacks were made by God in an inferior manner. Can then someone claim a religious exemption to serving blacks in their restaurant? That's the road you are headed down.

It is pretty simple - your private beliefs are your own business but when you are engaged in a commercial activity, it must be available to all, not just some. That's the message of the civil rights movement and it is coming on this issue as well. Why? Because the children of today will have grown up expecting that to be the case.