Taking bets on collusion and obstruction

[Kevin]

I'm putting up hard coin to back up my prediction - Mueller won't find anything directly on Trump colluding with the Russians with respect to the election.

Oh, he'll find dirt. No one as rich as Trump is clean and his nature is to push the envelope, so Mueller will find financial dirt but nothing directly connecting Trump's campaign to Russia.

Why?

Because here in my part of the world, Trump has been almost daily fodder for decades. He delegates stuff out. He never gets involved himself in the down and dirty so other people might go to jail but not him. His management style pretty much ensures that he stays one level removed from anything. It is the NY way. NY is mobbed up big time and that's how the bosses stay clean, by keeping everything one level removed from them.

But I'll go even further. I don't think that, even apart from Trump, there is anything actually connecting the Trump campaign to Russia.

Why?

Because this group has been stepping on their junk from day one. They were totally inexperienced, completely unprepared for campaigning and then governing. This is the gang that can't shoot straight. They couldn't get a good conspiracy going if they tried and if they did, based on the leaks I've seen, they wouldn't have been able to keep their mouths shut about it if it had happened.

So with respect to collusion with Russia with respect to the campaign, I bet Mueller comes up a dry hole. Folks will then have to deal with the fact that he's the President, fair and square, and get on with their lives.

On obstruction:

Dry hole. Sessions will be found to have kept Trump from making Presidency-ending mistakes. Lots of thunder will roll but no heads. Trump will have been saved from himself by people he will never thank or even understand what they did for him, which makes him an ingrate in addition to his other personality flaws but not a criminal.

On finances:

No bet. Too opaque for me to even hazard a guess about that or how it relates to Trump's policies towards Russia.

I'm on the record. Who else wants to be?

[wacojoe]

Why? I think you covered my bases. The only real possibility will be some hokey “obstruction of justice” allegation for firing a guy who proved he needed firing in every way possible and who was spearheading an investigation of non-crimes, which proceeded anyway. A dirty report will issue that D’rats can use if they get majority control of the House to impeach Trump and will lead nowhere because it takes a 2/3 vote to convict. It will paralyze Trump’s plans though, which is enough for Democrats, I think.

[FredK]

Kevin--great observations. It's about my take that Trump himself didn't do it, but on the other hand a bunch of his helpers tried and maybe did. Util the mess comes to light, we all just guessing.

[TxMusky]

Fred you wouldn't have an opinion if somebody gave it to you. Just kidding buddy, you wait until I take a side and then you take the opposite.

It is funny how all of the political crap works, none of the main participants will ever be strapped for anything because they have concrete plans to keep them protected. All politicians operate the same way and the Dems were willing to take the chance and look stupid by pressing this whole Russian charade and for what? Hilliary was never going to take the job, it was not going to be hers no matter what, so why all of the hoopla?

Back on topic, They will not find any collusion because there was not any to find. The russians were meddling just to be meddling, they had no dog in the hunt they actually wanted to win, it was all just a study in being a big PITA and to cause trouble. Come to think of it, it reminds me of a couple of guys here, Fred and Don, that don't really have an opinion, they just like to stir the beans.

Sorry Fred, ya gotta admit it describes ya pretty well.

[Fulltimer]

I don't think the President actively supported the Russians interference but those around him seems to have. The emails released by Donald Trump Jr. describes their attempts to accept Russian interference.

From: Rob Goldstone To: Donald Trump Jr. June 3, 2016, 10:36 AM
Good morning

Emin just called and asked me to contact you with something very interesting.

The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

I have worked on many political campaigns: Libertarian, Democratic, and Republican and if I had received this type of information I would have ran from it like my hair was on fire fearing it an attempt to implicate me or the campaign I was working on in an illegal sting.

[wacojoe]

The policing authorities will gladly accept incriminating evidence on fellow crooks of any kind from anybody any time without blinking, so why should an opposing campaign not accept incriminating information against a crooked Hillary campaign. But, and it’s a big “but,” there is zero evidence that any Trump minion actually got anything from Russians.

[Billy_Rightwing]

Muller is going to keep digging till he will find Trump didn't cut his finger nails right or something like that, then will feel the case can be closed. He will tell our President goshy darn you and feel job is done.

[Fulltimer]

Muller is going to keep digging till he will find Trump didn't cut his finger nails right or something like that, then will feel the case can be closed. He will tell our President goshy darn you and feel job is done.

There is still plenty of time for the investigation.

The Whitewater investigation started in January 1994 and concluded in November 1998.

Mueller has just started and there is a much larger scope to this investigation than an Arkansas Land deal and a consensual sex act.

[Fulltimer]

I made a mistake on the length of the Whitewater investigation.
I forgot about Robert Ray who replaced Ken Starr who had replaced Robert B. Fiske Jr.

Robert Ray issued the final report on March 6, 2002, 8 years after the investigation began.

Why does the President keep referring to himself as a Witch?

[Kevin]

He turned me into a newt!


I got better...

[TxMusky]

Read today that Mueller has been botching investigations all the way back to the anthrax threat that involved Daschle's office right after 9/11 when Mueller ran the FBI. That investigation lasted for about 10 years. I think the guy is way overrated.

If there was even a hint of collusion, something, even a smidgen of something would have turned up by now with all of the individual investigations going on at the same time. It is going to get to the point if some little something is found that may not look right, the people will horse laugh the whole thing because there is not a great big huge smoking bazooka. Instead the best they can hope for is a tiny water pistol and that will do nothing.

[Fulltimer]

The Russian collusion investigation is only one thing Mueller is investigating. There is also Obstruction of Justice and any other crime his investigation uncovers.

I think it is there for the long haul just like the Whitewater one was.


don

[wacojoe]

^^^
And that’s the problem with it — no bounds and unlimited power. Seems kind of unAmerican, doesn’t it?
If that’s the way we want to go, perhaps thought should be given to taking the Whitewater Special Prosecuter investigation out of mothballs and rebooting it. At least there was plenty of Clinton crapola there.

[Fulltimer]

^^^
And that’s the problem with it — no bounds and unlimited power. Seems kind of unAmerican, doesn’t it?
If that’s the way we want to go, perhaps thought should be given to taking the Whitewater Special Prosecuter investigation out of mothballs and rebooting it. At least there was plenty of Clinton crapola there.

I always thought all prosecutors had unlimited power to prosecute any crimes they uncovered.

We shouldn't need a "Special Prosecutor" except in cases where it is feared political influence will subjugate the rule of law.


don

[Kevin]

The special counsel/prosecutor/investigator is required to turn over any evidence of criminal activity to the FBI if not empowered himself/herself to do the prosecution.

So it is six of one, half dozen of the other if Mueller does not have the power himself to prosecute.

It also means that anyone who thinks that stopping Mueller means stopping the investigation is wrong. Mueller would simply turn over everything found to the FBI and they'd investigate from there, if warranted.

At least, that's what I've gleaned on the subject. I'm no lawyer, though. Just going by what I've read.