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Thread: Malhuer National Wildlife Reserve Armed Protest

  1. #271
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    Not disagreeing with most of what you said Dave, there are going to be kooks in just about everything and the guy from Cinncy should have been declined an invitation. Rev Sharpton owes the govt over 4.5 million dollars but he gets invited to the WH for tea and crumpets.

    Some things need to be brought to the forefront, maybe the methods were harsh, but it got the attention. Look at the riots in Baltimore and Ferguson, the cops were told to back off and where are the arrests from those lovely stands?

  2. #272
    Wannabe is offline Nov 5, 1946 - Nov 19, 2018
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    Dave touched a nerve. The BLM and a bunch of other alphabet kingdoms are power hungry and are probably guilty of many crimes. That is something that needs to be dealt with Within the law. I agree with Dave on his take of the situation. Bundy is a thief. Farmers and ranchers get enough subsidies ( government handouts, welfare) as it is. I drink coffee every morning with farmers and ranchers, and Yes, on occasion I will say something about them being on welfare. I am not obnoxious about it.

  3. #273
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    these issues of Federal Overreach, Corruption and Collusion
    The ranchers are allowed to communicate are they not? Show us what you were fighting for, support is waning. Looks like the worst part is that it was all for nothing, except for the fed, they got everybody out of the way. Now the the money men can now start the planning on their solar plant
    This is your mind on drugs!

  4. #274
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    Just for the record---I don't support the thugs in Ferguson or Baltimore anymore than this bunch of outlaws
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  5. #275
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    Maybe there IS more to this....
    U.S. District Court Judge Robert C. Jones states that for over 20 years the Bureau of Land Management engaged in a “literal, intentional conspiracy” against Nevada rancher E. Wayne Hage to force his family out of business.
    “In summary, government officials, and perhaps also Mr. Snow, entered into a literal, intentional conspiracy to deprive the Hages not only of their permits but also of their vested water rights.”
    “This behavior shocks the conscience of the Court and provides a sufficient basis for a finding of irreparable harm to support the injunction described at the end of this Order.”
    Basically, the BLM attempted to destroy the Hage family’s livelihood because he asserted his rights to the land which his family held since the late 19th century.
    This is exactly what the BLM is attempting to do to Cliven Bundy.


    In his opinion of United States v. Estate of Hage, U.S. District Court Judge Robert C. Jones reveals that after late Nevada rancher E. Wayne Hage indicated on his 1993 grazing permit renewal that by signing the permit, he was not surrendering his family’s long-standing water and forage rights on the land, the BLM not only rejected the permit but also conspired for decades to both deny his family’s property rights and to destroy their cattle business.
    “Based upon E. Wayne Hage’s declaration that he refused to waive his rights — a declaration that did not purport to change the substance of the grazing permit renewal for which he was applying, and which had no plausible legal effect other than to superfluously assert non-waiver of rights — the Government denied him a renewal grazing permit based upon its frankly nonsensical position that such an assertion of rights meant that the application had not been properly completed,” Judge Jones wrote. “After the BLM denied his renewal grazing permit for this reason by letter, the Hages indicated that they would take the issue to court, and they sued the Government in the CFC [Court of Federal Claims.]”
    And at that point, Jones explained, the BLM refused to consider any further applications from Hage.
    “The entire chain of events is the result of the Government’s arbitrary denial of E. Wayne Hage’s renewal permit for 1993–2003, and the effects of this due process violation are continuing,” he stated.
    Judge Jones continued:
    In 2007, unsatisfied with the outcome thus far in the CFC, the Government brought the present civil trespass action against Hage and the Estate. The Government did not bring criminal misdemeanor trespass claims, perhaps because it believed it could not satisfy the burden of proof in a criminal trespass action, as a previous criminal action against E. Wayne Hage had been reversed by the Court of Appeals. During the course of the present trial, the Government has: (1)invited others, including Mr. Gary Snow, to apply for grazing permits on allotments where the Hages previously had permits, indicating that Mr. Snow could use water sources on such land in which Hage had water rights, or at least knowing that he would use such sources; (2) applied with the Nevada State Engineer for its own stock watering rights in waters on the land despite that fact that the Government owns no cattle nearby and has never intended to obtain any, but rather for the purpose of obtaining rights for third parties other than Hage in order to interfere with Hage’s rights; and (3) issued trespass notices and demands for payment against persons who had cattle pastured with Hage, despite having been notified by these persons and Hage himself that Hage was responsible for these cattle and even issuing such demands for payment to witnesses soon after they testified in this case.
    By filing for a public water reserve, the Government in this case sought specifically to transfer to others water rights belonging to the Hages. The Government also explicitly solicited and granted temporary grazing rights to parties who had no preferences under the TGA [Taylor Grazing Act of 1934], such as Mr. Snow, in areas where the Hages had preferences under the TGA.
    It is necessary to note that under the TGA, according to Red Canyon Sheep Co. v. Ickes (1938), a rancher whose cattle had previously grazed in the area based upon adjacent land, water rights on the land, etc., has a right to a grazing permit over others who apply for a permit to graze the area without having previously grazed there.
    So in this instance, Hage would have priority over Snow for a grazing permit, but the BLM willfully ignored this court ruling.
    And after the agency filed for a public water reserve, according to Judge Jones, the BLM “sent trespass notices to people who leased or sold cattle to the Hages, notwithstanding the Hages’ admitted and known control over that cattle, in order to pressure other parties not to do business with the Hages, and even to discourage or punish testimony in the present case.”
    “For this reason, the Court has held certain government officials in contempt and referred the matter to the U.S. Attorney’s Office,” he wrote. “In summary, government officials, and perhaps also Mr. Snow, entered into a literal, intentional conspiracy to deprive the Hages not only of their permits but also of their vested water rights.”
    “This behavior shocks the conscience of the Court and provides a sufficient basis for a finding of irreparable harm to support the injunction described at the end of this Order.”
    So in other words, the BLM willfully attempted to destroy the Hage family’s livelihood because Hage dared to assert his existing rights to the land which his family has held since the late 19th century.
    And unfortunately the BLM is attempting to do the exact same thing to Cliven Bundy.
    “Has Attorney General Eric Holder prosecuted any federal officials for criminal activity and violation of the Hage family’s constitutionally protected rights? No,” William F. Jasper, senior editor of The New American, wrote on the subject. “Has Sen. Harry Reid denounced this lawlessness and criminal activity by government officials and call upon President Obama and Attorney General Holder to protect the citizens of his state from the depredations of federal officials under their command? No.”
    http://www.truthandaction.org/federa...racy-ranchers/

  6. #276
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    It appears that Mr. Hage and his successors did exactly what they should have done---they responded in the courts like grown-ups, not outlaws.

    I'd suggest that had the Bundys and others who share these claims had formed a cooperative to legally fight the BLM they would have had an impact----and not the one they now have.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  7. #277
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    We are talking about a 20 year fight here. It is not so much the persistence of the rancher, but the corrupt BLM that keep pursuing the issue and not taking no for an answer. Ranchers for the most part are not rich men, they do not have the money to keep fighting the lawyers the govt employs for a decades long fight. At some point the straw that breaks the camels back is placed and unconventional methods are used. It seems to be an ongoing problem with the feds, as we are having the same problem here in Texas along the Red River between Oklahoma and Texas against a landowner.

    The govt is overstepping its bounds in many areas, which leaves me to believe that it is not the ranchers fault that they are at the end of their rope. Nobody should have that kind of power, to pick and choose on a whim whether or not a private citizen should be harrassed simply because some lackey behind a desk does not think they deserve what the have. It is like these clowns think that cattle, sheep and goats are "domesticated" animals, when in reality they are as wild as the buffalo, deer, elk and bears. They all forage for grassy plants and move from place to place to make sure they have plenty to eat. While they are grazing in another area the plants have a chance to grow taller and provide for additional grazing. How more natural can that be? The federal people have become so smart they are stupid and need to be removed from the payroll immediately for trying to control something they do not understand.

  8. #278
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    Here are a couple more from all different parts of the Country and from a couple of different govt agencies. The insanity of what these agencies are doing to private citizens should be in the headlines of every media outlet in America. This is what happens when the govt forgets that they work for the people and start taking advantage of the citizens.
    In 1989, Ocie Clayton Mills, then age 54, and his 31-year-old son Carey were sentenced to the federal penitentiary, each for a term of 21 months, and fined $5,000. Their crime? The EPA and Army Corps of Engineers wrongly claimed that they had violated the federal Clean Water Act by cleaning out an existing drainage ditch and placing fill sand on part of their half-acre parcel of land in Santa Rosa County, Florida, where the Mills family had intended to build their dream home.
    Andy Johnson (shown) didn’t destroy a wetland, he created one. More precisely, like many other farmers he created a stock pond to provide water for his horses, cattle, and other livestock on his small farm near Bridger, Wyoming. Johnson, a 32-year-old welder and father of four young girls, created his stock pond in 2012 by building a dam across an intermittent stream on his property. Before doing so, he obtained the necessary state and local permits. Congress expressly exempted stock ponds from Clean Water Act (CWA) jurisdiction. However, never ones to be impeded by the rule of law, EPA bureaucrats issued a “compliance order” demanding that Johnson return his property, under federal oversight, to its condition before the stock pond was created. In addition, the EPA began fining him at the rate of $37,500 per day. According to the EPA, he has already racked up fines of $20 million.
    I wonder if this bunch went to jail for a fire?
    On April 3, 2013, the U.S. Forest Service ignited a prescribed burn along the North Dakota-South Dakota border in the Grand River National Grasslands. The stated reason for the burn was to destroy 130 acres of dead crested wheat. Due to the dangerously dry, windy conditions, farmers and ranchers in the area had repeatedly warned against and protested against burns in the area. Disregarding this sound advice (as well as weather service fire-danger alerts), the Forest Service lit the fires anyway. Predictably, the flames quickly raged out of control, taking out not a mere 130 acres but 17 square miles (nearly 11,000 acres), 11 square miles of which are privately owned ranch/farm land. It’s known as the Pautre Fire, and it has left smoldering embers that continue to ignite passion among ranchers and farmers nationwide.
    John Duarte — Plow Your Field, Go to Jail
    In December of 2012, John Duarte did what thousands of other farmers do: He planted wheat. Specifically, he planted wheat on 450 acres he owns in California’s central valley near Red Bluff, a couple hours north of Sacramento. Little did he know that this simple act would place him in jeopardy of fines as high as $50,000 per day and a possible prison sentence. Matthew Kelley, an employee of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, happened to drive by and take notice of the plowing activity on Duarte’s land in preparation for the planting. Kelley reported to his superiors that Duarte’s plowing operations were a “big violation” of the federal Clean Water Act, in that they were, allegedly, destroying a “wetland.”
    The Clean Water Act authorizes the Corps of Engineers to regulate certain “discharges” to “waters of the United States.” The Corps has interpreted this to mean “wetlands” and virtually every mud puddle in the country. However, the act specifically exempts “normal farming activities” from the ban on discharging dredge and fill material and from the costly and burdensome permit requirements. There are good reasons for agricultural exemptions: Requiring farmers to spend, on average, two years and $270,000 to get a federal permit to plant and harvest crops would be a prescription for national starvation.
    http://reagangirl.com/federal-agenci...-and-ranchers/

    It seems to be an epidemic of stupidity and negligence at all levels of govt. I am sure there are hundreds of more examples, so maybe if all of this is going on in the background, maybe, just maybe, the Country needed a Bundy or some other group to bring all of the injustice into the spotlight. Until these morons in govt positions are exposed, innocent American citizens will be subject to this type of abuse time and time again.

  9. #279
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    Being born and raised on a farm I am fully aware of the fact that few have deep pockets---but what I am also aware of is the power of cooperatives----and enlisting the aid of the local representatives. There are appropriate ways to fight things like this without resorting to guns and grand standing.

    The BLM may well be the culprit here---but the ranchers have now conceded the high ground and once lost will never be regained.

    Here is just one move that would put Mr. Bundy in a different light---place the grazing fees that went unpaid into an escrow fund----at least he would not appear to be a common thief---which at this point he is.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  10. #280
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    Dave, most times I would agree, let the courts handle it, but it seems that the foxes watching the henhouse are either corrupt or profusely inept, and the innocent citizen is punished. In all of the instances I just posted, there was no damage to the environment that would seriously impact life as we know it, especially the farmer who was farming a small area. When those in power do not take their job seriously, and in just about all of these cases I think the reason behind the acts by the govt employees, is to make a name for themselves for job advancement, they should no longer be employed. Sure we have laws for good reason, and yet even the best of intentions can cause a person with less than noble thoughts to pervert the simplicity of the original meaning of that law. When that happens, the whole law needs to be either rescinded or reworked.

  11. #281
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    I agree--our only difference here is the method of changing the conditions.

    I listen to these ranchers and frankly most of the time they are talking out of their wherever as Trump might say. Stop playing Mr Bluster and act like responsible people.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” ---Sir Winston Churchill
    "Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." ---John W. Gardner
    “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.” ---C. S. Lewis

  12. #282
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    Dave's right but he's a little to sure footed in his stance. Everybody that fights the fed fights for decades it seems, (As you said above)they can't afford it and the feds know that, just wait them out. Harry Reed has been trying to get the Bundy land for twenty years, the Bundy's have been fighting it for that long with no end in site. They, their family's, etc.. need to make sure this whole thing gets put out there, nobody I talk to even knows about it, some have heard something but didn't pay attention. The protesters might should have burned down a town or at least looted one.
    This is your mind on drugs!

  13. #283
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    Lavoy Finicum....is anti-gov't, hates the gov't and all these guys are all nothing but domestic terrorists, yep I know this for a fact because I heard it on the 5 o clock news and this video proves it!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7sVeB76RNY

  14. #284
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    OMFG! check out the DOMESTIC terrorist in this pic (Mr Bundy). Crap even all those kids are his too can you believe this! Heck this terrorist even has a trucking business with 24 employees, never is trouble with the law either.



  15. #285
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    More domestic terrorists..watch out for the blondes they are the one that wake up in the middle of the night and poke out your eyes with sharpened coat hangers.


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