Human cost

I watched the news and the Jan 6 hearings yesterday and what struck me most, beyond the sheer outrageousness of some recent events, was the human cost.

1) Rusty Bowers - this guy articulated precisely the way I felt about my service to my country as a federal employee. He and his family suffered for it. He was deeply angered, you could tell, by the way the Trump horde harassed him, his wife, his gravely ill daughter. No one gave a ****, though, not even people he called his friends. People with guns scaring his neighbors, for God's sake. Because he wouldn't knuckle under.

2) Brad Raffensberger - he got the same treatment. Did you notice how careful he was when answering Schiff? Schiff asked a question that relied on Raffensberger knowing what was in Trump's mind and Raffensberger very carefully stuck to what he was qualified to speak about - the disposition of the votes. He and his family became targets of the mob - thousands of text messages, phone messages, pornography sent. Hell, the President even helped by posting Raffensberger's personal phone number. What a ****-heel we had for President. And still I see the Trump 2024 flags in my town.

3) Gabe Sterling - for a Georgia boy, he had no discernible accent. He saw how the lies were whipping people up to violence and called out the President of the United States in a very public way and got the same treatment as the other two.

4) Shaye Moss and Ruby Freeman. This made me very upset. These women were specifically targeted by the President of the United States of America and the mob set loose on them. Freeman had the straight of it - she said that the President was supposed to protect Americans, all Americans. Trump pointed the mob at her instead. Just to stay in power. Disgusting.

5) Uvalde. The head of the Texas Public Safety Dept. was visibly emotional when discussing the unfathomable dereliction of duty by Arredondo. All those children, dead because Arredondo was seemingly occupying a job where he could collect a paycheck instead of protect people. I don't know how Arredondo can continue in any capacity in that town. All those parents, demanding answers for their dead children. I cannot imagine the pit of horror they are in and it keeps getting deeper every day as more and more is known. Like someone being tortured and the torture never ends.

Yesterday was a very sad day if you look at the people suffering.

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Originally Posted by Kevin

Uvalde. The head of the Texas Public Safety Dept. was visibly emotional when discussing the unfathomable dereliction of duty by Arredondo. All those children, dead because Arredondo was seemingly occupying a job where he could collect a paycheck instead of protect people. I don't know how Arredondo can continue in any capacity in that town. All those parents, demanding answers for their dead children. I cannot imagine the pit of horror they are in and it keeps getting deeper every day as more and more is known. Like someone being tortured and the torture never ends.

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Chief Arrendondo was recently sworn in as a member of the Uvalde City Council in May...He just requested a leave of absence from that position which was unanimously denied...

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A motion was unanimously denied to grant a leave of absence to the newly elected council member, who was not present Tuesday night. Per city council rules, there is a $2 fine for missing council meetings, and after three missed meetings, the other council members can vote to have a member removed from their post.

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Not a popular human being (I almost called him a man, then thought better of it) at all in any crowd...:mob:...Ben

You captured well Kevin the proceedings of yesterday's committee meeting----but failed to carry the absolute emotional impact of the testimony. To be fair, I don't expect that even as crafty a wordsmith as you, that emotion could be fully described. I wish everyone would take the time to listen to these proceedings, I regard it as a civil duty.

I found myself so angry yesterday about both these events. The fact that the President of the United States would focus a mob on another American citizen was so infuriating. The people that Rusty Bowers knew and worked with for years and whom he considered his friends, betraying him by either keeping silent or helping put pressure on him for a corrupt President. A man has to wonder how he so misjudged people when that happens. And the people in these mobs, chanting outside election officials houses, forcing their way past cancer-ridden family members of these officials to enter houses forcibly, sending pornography and death threats because one corrupt man appealed to their worst instincts - how do these people come to be? A woman who cannot go out in public, who has suffered health problems because of this corrupt man, hiding lest someone recognize her or say her name and she might be set upon. A mother whose name was dirtied and who was called a crack user, in the cause of one corrupt man trying to cling to power against the will of the people.

And police officers willing to let children die rather than face danger themselves. Police lying about her craven actions, trying to avoid blame. Children dead because the police were too frightened to do their jobs.

I have to stop. I'm making myself angry again and I don't want to be.

Maybe what it is all about is the sworn oath and how important that is to making our country work. Bowers refused to break his oath. Raffensperger refused, Sterling refused. Moss and Freeman stood by their oaths. They all held firm and righteous. The police in Uvalde did not. I guess I can take some comfort in seeing what happens when oaths sworn mean something and learn a lesson from seeing what happens when those oaths mean nothing.

I have come to the point where I absolutely ( and this is being polite) detest Trump, his enablers and the mob that follows him. Even when I have vehemently disagreed with policies and results of previous administrations and votes it never would have occurred to me to verbally or physically assault other Americans. Topping it off is the open willful subverting of the rule of law and the US Constitution. Tossing them in jail and throwing away the key for their actions would be just fine with me.

These hearings have exposed a level of unchecked corruption at the very top of our government that is being exposed as worse than even I thought it might be----and more blatant. trump in his unlimited arrogance running around EXPECTING people to break their oath, their ethics, and their principles for no reason other than he demanded it. Sadly---trump can't even begin to understand that----to him these people were just being "stupid". Ms Moss and her mother have more character in one finger than trump could even imagine.

One of the stronger feelings I have watching these proceedings is profound shame in what we have stooped to---what trump has dragged us down to. I had tears running down my face yesterday as Ms Moss and her mother spoke-----her Grandmother terrified inside her own house by the goons following trump. What the f*** are we doing?

I wish that the good people that have been sucked into the cult of this POS would watch these events, I am convinced that many of them would hang their heads in shame and they would see trump for the scum he is and turn their back on this devil :madman:

If the outcome of the hearings damages trumps ability to be reelected that would be a very desirable outcome.

I didn't see the hearing, I've decided it is a waste of my time because it is nothing but political grandstanding that will see no prosecutions, reprimands or censures.

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And the people in these mobs, chanting outside election officials houses, forcing their way past cancer-ridden family members of these officials to enter houses forcibly

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I don't know where, or even if this took place. However, forcible entry into ones home here is Texas is a shooting offense that requires immediate action.

Mike, I think you are wrong. The first one I agree was posturing----but they are past that and when it does pop up it is easy to see. These hearings have been dominated by Republicans (my kind of Republicans not rinos). They are telling a story that isn't easy to hear.

The women we are talking about in the last hearing---yes that was "drama"----but that does not mean it was untrue or contrived. These are "simple people" (no insult or judgement in that) and they became the unwitting targets of trump's mean spirited self centerness being stroked by the cult!

The man is evil and that evil needs to be exposed.

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Originally Posted by Dave Grubb

The man is evil and that evil needs to be exposed.

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I won't disagree with that. I'd like to see that evil incarcerated in a supermax prison while it awaits execution for sedition.

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Originally Posted by Mike

I won't disagree with that. I'd like to see that evil incarcerated in a supermax prison while it awaits execution for sedition.

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I'll drink to that

I actually know Rusty Bowers, and the goodness of the man he is was not portrayed by his testimony. He was not coached in anyway, because, at a minimum, he truly is that good of a person. I am embarrassed that people could treat someone that is so good, and genuinely kind and honorable in such a horrific manner.
My son worked on the opposite side of the aisle from him in the state legislature and thinks so highly of him he donated to his campaign, just because he feels our state needs him in the legislature, even though they are political opposites. That says something to me.

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Originally Posted by Truckman

Chief Arrendondo was …Not a popular human being (I almost called him a man, then thought better of it) at all in any crowd...:mob:...Ben

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I think Human Being is a bit of an overstatement. Not sure I could properly define it, though

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Originally Posted by Mike

I won't disagree with that. I'd like to see that evil incarcerated in a supermax prison while it awaits execution for sedition.

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I could work with that :usa::hatoff:

From the transcript of the hearing yesterday:

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BRAD RAFFENSPERGER:

Well, after the — after the election, my email, my cell phone was docked. And so I was getting texts all over the country. And then eventually my wife started getting the text and hers typically came in a sexualized attacks which were disgusting. You have to understand that Trish and I, we met in high school.

We've married over 40 years now. And so they started going after her I think just to probably put pressure on me. Why don't you just quit walk away. And so that happened. And then some people broke into my daughter in law's home and my son has passed and she's widow and has two kids. And so we're very concerned about her safety also.

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SHAYE MOSS:

I received a call from my grandmother. This woman is my everything. I've never even heard her or seen her cry ever in my life. And she called me screaming at the top of her lungs, like, "Shaye, Shaye, oh my gosh, Shaye." Just freaking me out saying that there are people at her home and they, you know,they knocked on the door and of course she opened it seeing who was there, who it was.

And they just started pushing their way through, claiming that they were coming in to make a citizen's arrest. They needed to find me and my mom. They knew we were there. And she was just, like,screaming and didn't know what to do. And I wasn't there. So, you know, I just felt so helpless and so horrible for her.

And she was just screaming. I told her to close the door. Don't open the door for — for anyone. And,you know, she's a 70 something I won't say year old woman. And she — she doesn't like having restrictions. She wants to answer the door. She likes to get her steps in walking around the neighborhood. And I had to tell her, like, you can't do that.

You — you have to be safe. You know, she would tell me that at night people would just continuously send pizzas over and over to her home. You know, and they was expecting her to pay for these large amounts of pizzas. And she went through a lot that she didn't have to. And once again it made me just feel so horrible.

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These people were under oath while making these statements.

I think, Mike, you are missing something. Telling the story, publicly, with people publicly testifying as to who said and did what, is important even if no one ever goes to jail. We as a country need to know what happened in full, not just who broke the law. I recall Trump paying something like $750 in total taxes for a number of years. Perfectly legal. Is there nothing to talk about a gazillionaire paying only $750 in taxes as long as he obeyed the law? I think there is and part of that is first making people aware of the situation. How can you expect anyone to just "know" how awful January 6 was unless you tell them? And unless they know, they could likely vote for these bozos again.

The transcript can be found at https://www.npr.org/2022/06/21/11058...ing-transcript

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RUSTY BOWERS:

Well, as others in the videos have mentioned, we received, my secretaries would say, in excess of 20,000 emails and tens of thousands of voicemails and texts which saturated our offices. And we were unable to work, at least communicate, that at home, up till even recently, it is the new pattern or a pattern in our lives to worry what will happen on Saturdays because we have various groups come by and they have had video panel trucks with videos of me proclaiming me to be a pedophile and a pervert and a corrupt politician and blaring loudspeakers in my neighborhood and leaving literature both on my property, and — but arguing and threatening with neighbors and with myself.

And I don't know if I should name groups, but there was a — one gentleman that had the three bars on his chest. And he had a pistol and was threatening my neighbor. Not with the pistol, but just vocally. When I saw the gun, I knew I had to get close. And at the same time, on some of these we had a daughter who is gravely ill, who is upset by what was happening outside. And my wife that is a valiant person, very, very strong, quiet, very strong woman. So it was disturbing. It was disturbing.

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You don't get the power of this testimony from the transcript. Mr. Bowers was titanically angry while recounting this. His jaw was clenched and I thought he could chew nails and spit rust he was so mad. He choked up on the last three sentences and could not finish. He was profoundly upset.

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Originally Posted by Kevin

I think, Mike, you are missing something.

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Nope not missing anything. I agree that it is important for the facts to come out, and I agree that the more people who hear the facts the better off everyone is. I'm just not going to waste my time listening to political rhetoric when I already know the dude is dirty and I believe he should be executed for sedition. All watching the television drama does is make me angry and I already have enough anger for a lifetime. So, let's get it on and put the dude on trial. Then, execute him. He has to go for America to heal. Healing is going to be a long, drawn-out process. It's liable to take a generation, or two. You know how those Confederate battle flags keep popping up everywhere 157 years later? Trump flags will do the same. They should be banned. Or, maybe classify them as weapons of mass destruction and regulate them under the NFA. Make anyone who wants one apply and pay the $200 tax to own one the same way they do machine guns and suppressors.

I yearn for the day that we don't have to talk about Trump anymore.

As do I.

Hunter

I watched a portion of Rusty Bowers on a rerun around midnight.. the “color commentary “ on PBS described him as a very conservative, very honest, very fair person..

Rusty Bowers did not deserve to be treated and threatened as he was by people who had been “on his team” a week before.. for being honest and upholding his oath.

So much of today’s violent politics does not pass the “what then” test ie: people in Georgia rush into grandma’s house to make a citizens arrest.. if the “citizens” did find their prey and arrested him, what next?

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Originally Posted by Honda

I yearn for the day that we don't have to talk about Trump anymore.

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I yearn for the day that trump has no pulpit---and no freedom :redmad:

Only then will I allow him and his evilness "free passage". :beat:

All I care is that Trump is not the Republican candidate for president. What happens to him otherwise doesn't really concern me.

trump needs to be the example to show anyone else who gets thoughts like this ----it's a damn bad idea. Lock his orange ass up---along with all his worthless lapdogs.

I see a double-edged sword. If we let Trump slide it will encourage others to emulate him. If we prosecute him to the fullest extent he deserves we are likely to have riots and probably cases of domestic terrorism. His disciples will not take it without retaliation. Either way, he has screwed us and he will laugh about it for the rest of his smarmy life.

:pissed:

Sometimes you have to lance the boil rather than let it fester and poison the blood stream.

Oh, I like the festering boil analogy. For, it fits.

Personally, I think #45 is all about the money. If he is not incarcerated and keeps most of the money he's collected, he'll consider his life a success. And, as long as he's not in office, we get something out of it too. It's a win-win situation.

Hunter

I'll argue it is not a win-win as long as trump can continue to attack the very fabric of this nation through his unending lies and inciting his cult to do his bidding.

As long as he walks free, he will remain a pox on the entire country.

I can see that too, Dave. Where we differ is where it all ends. I hope, and expect, that the next national election cycle will flatten these issues. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat (yeah, I don't know why anyone would eat a hat, it's just an old saying).

Hunter

He wont be locked up, because if he is, it will put any future president, or politico under a microscope when the opposite party comes into power.
Remember that there is a lot of legitimate evidence that Biden has also been involved some serious malfeasance. It would make him a particularly easy target, if Trump is prosecuted.

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Originally Posted by Scooter

He wont be locked up, because if he is, it will put any future president, or politico under a microscope when the opposite party comes into power.
Remember that there is a lot of legitimate evidence that Biden has also been involved some serious malfeasance. It would make him a particularly easy target, if Trump is prosecuted.

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Agree with the first part.. we can not start locking former presidents up..

Second part.. sounds like radio/tv talk show entertainers.. maybe Biden kid has been up to no good..

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Originally Posted by Sandman

Agree with the first part.. we can not start locking former presidents up...

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Maybe we can banish them to remote islands like the British exiling Napoleon Bonaparte to Elba, and again to St. Helena...:jail:...Ben

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Originally Posted by Truckman

Maybe we can banish them to remote islands like the British exiling Napoleon Bonaparte to Elba, and again to St. Helena...:jail:...Ben

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From what I understand the Epstein had some islands that interested presidents

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Originally Posted by Scooter

He wont be locked up, because if he is, it will put any future president, or politico under a microscope when the opposite party comes into power.
Remember that there is a lot of legitimate evidence that Biden has also been involved some serious malfeasance. It would make him a particularly easy target, if Trump is prosecuted.

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While I doubt trump will ever go to jail, I believe he should, simply based on the seriousness of his crime. Call his actions seditionist or insurrectionist, it matters not, he encouraged people to rebel against the government of the United States----they hung John Brown for less :redmad:

Welllllll,

Sorta.

Brown was convicted of murdering four people, inciting a slave insurrection and treason. Any one of this carried the death penalty. He personally involved in the murder of five men at the Pottawatomie Massacre. Trump never had that sort of balls. Moreover, Brown did all his deeds in service to what he considered a higher goal - abolition of slavery. Trump has no higher goal than his own ego. Maybe his wallet. Sort of a tossup there.

I doubt Trump himself will ever face charges. He gets people to do stuff for him but keeps his own hands clean enough to avoid direct responsibility. He's a user, not a doer.

No doubt he learned his craft well as a New York City real estate guy. As crooked as it gets.

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Originally Posted by Honda

All I care is that Trump is not the Republican candidate for president. What happens to him otherwise doesn't really concern me.

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Oh but I hope he is, he's very good at getting the Democrat's to vote.