My dilemma---our dilemma

I am struggling with what I can do as an individual in response to our national crisis.

My very highly regarded Senator Pat Toomey, has his own questions of what to do going forward. Even if trump is impeached and thus barred from running again--it does not bar a trump surrogate and sure as God made green apples, jr for one, will be all too happy to stand in for dad---and be most like him. Make no mistake---there will be a ready made--and large--adoring base just waiting for the chance to vote this insanity in again.

Obviously, one immediate action for me is to leave the Republican Party, but that disenfranchises me in PA. We have a closed primary and I live in a red area. That means my greatest potential of empowering my vote is to remain a Republican. The conflict now, is that I see the Republican Party being trump and I am repulsed by him and the current version of the party. Worse yet, I see no effort internally to distance the party from trump---trump runs the show and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Changing my registration to independent puts me on the outside looking in at primary time. Registering as Liberation has the same results. I can't abide by the goals of the progressive Democratic wing and thus to go there is not attractive to me. My preference would be to stay---but the RNC is now whored and no purge seems likely.

I'm sure others here are having the same conflict---would you share your thoughts?

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...the progressive Democratic wing...

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No definitive answers here, Dave, but since you asked for thoughts, I think whoever decided to add the word, "progressive" as a descriptor to the Democrat party was a marketing genius...To the great unwashed, and misinformed, the Democrats suddenly became associated with progress, although they have yet to show any for America...The guy is probably sitting today at the head of a conference table at a large Madison Avenue ad agency...

The Republican Party, which I have supported since my very first vote was cast for Richard Nixon, has become so disjointed as to be unrecognizable for any sign of leadership for our country...I see no hope for America in any of the current political entities...And since the Bullmoose Party of Theodore Roosevelt (the true progressive) is not likely to be resurrected from the ashes, I think the only hope for America is a new independent political party with a strong platform, and candidates who can stand up to close scrutiny and stare down the opposition with truth...

But I don't see any such thing happening in my lifetime...:uhuh:...Ben

Kind of in the same boat here. I don't like the Democrats but the Republicans are dangerous in a whole 'nother dimension.

The nature of the problem, I think, isn't just the organized party. It is the fact that so many of my neighbors truly believe this nonsense. The Republican Party uses these people to get elected but the people themselves are the issue. It isn't all Republican voters but it is a bunch of them.

I see the issue being the fact that people can cocoon themselves in the sort of opinion they favor. I have heard of protesters Wednesday being shocked to learn that the Capitol police would resist the takeover. They thought, from what they had read, that the police and military would join them, arresting and hanging our legislators. You simply cannot get to that sort of delusion unless you never hear an opposing viewpoint.

Bring back the Fairness Doctrine. Start the deprogramming by presenting a different message.

Start a campaign for open primary..

Virginia now has no party affiliation... there is one primary day.. any party that wishes a primary must hold it on that day.. a voter goes to poll and identifies themselves .. once admitted as a registered voter they select one ballot, only one vote allowed..

As a result one receives junk mail from every party..

Democrat or Republican , = different sides of the same coin . As long as the party can keep the money and perks for the " elite " there will be no changes made. We the people have no other choice and until there is a removal of the total secrecy of Government actions AND justice for those in power who break the rules nothing is going to change.

In the 2016 election cycle, 97 percent of the incumbents who ran were reelected to the House and 93 percent were reelected to the Senate.
With stats. like that , there is no way that the average Joe will ever be able to affect the way the Country and people are controlled .

To effect change and elect true representatives for the people of the several States, there must be a major change in the election process. The biggest aid to putting honest people in office would be to impose a strict limit of how much money could be spent to get elected. ALL moneys must come from within the State or District from which a person is elected . NO OUTSIDE MONEY ALLOWED . Individuals MUST RESIDE in the State or District for the office being elected to. No carpetbagging allowed.

Of course that will never happen but , we are still allowed to dream aren't we .

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Originally Posted by Sandman

Start a campaign for open primary..

Virginia now has no party affiliation... there is one primary day.. any party that wishes a primary must hold it on that day.. a voter goes to poll and identifies themselves .. once admitted as a registered voter they select one ballot, only one vote allowed..

As a result one receives junk mail from every party..

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California has an open primary system. top two vote getters have a run off. Leads to a lot of Dem vs Dem in the final election. Think about that

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Originally Posted by Sandman

Start a campaign for open primary..

Virginia now has no party affiliation... there is one primary day.. any party that wishes a primary must hold it on that day.. a voter goes to poll and identifies themselves .. once admitted as a registered voter they select one ballot, only one vote allowed..

As a result one receives junk mail from every party..

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I have, but our current Republican controlled legislature isn't having any of that---they believe the current status advantages them.

I am also very active in trying to take the power of congressional districting away from the majority legislators and put it into the hands of a bipartisan panel of citizens---with no luck there as well. It gets past the House but ends there---we have a local mirror of McConnell. He refuses to allow a vote on anything he does not approve. He also represents a deep red county with no chance of being voted out--so he can't give a damn about anything other than what he likes. It makes a mockery of representative government.:down:

They are never going to vote for something that might impact them negatively. What the voters want be damned.

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Originally Posted by Sandman

Start a campaign for open primary...

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I like it.

Hunter

Trump is a liar. [ agreed ] ALL politicians are liars at one time or another . Does that mean all politicians should be removed from office ? . Who then would step in to take their place ?.

So after accepting the fact that Trump lies , just like all politicians , just what other crimes has he committed ? Certain news sites along with numerous talking heads are stating with certainty that Trump and Trump alone is responsible for the actions of couple hundred individuals breaching the Capital Building.

I disagree and would hope that at some point someone could point out the statement he made directing anyone to assault the Capitol. .... He did encourage a gathering to protest the results of the electoral vote..... That in and of itself IS NOT an act of treason nor a request to rebel against authority . IT WAS a request to show support for him and to protest what many feel was a compromised election. The fact that a very small number of those present acted in an illegal manner cannot be placed on him . To go through another impeachment trial or to try to remove him via the 25 amendment is the true miscarriage of justice.

This is part of the problem - minimizing Trump's transgressions with false equivalency.

It is not true that Trump lies just like every politician. He lies at at exponentially faster rate, about things big and small, than any other politician. He has over 20000 documented lies in office to his credit. Or should I say "alternate facts".

Furthermore, he has, throughout his Presidency, cozied up to the worst of the far right, the white supremacists, the conspiracy theorist, aided by a right wing media ecosystem that adds to his lies.

Then, he promotes The Big Lie, that the election was stolen, revs up these extremists and points them at the Capitol, where his sycophants are busy trying to overturn that election by destroying the votes of millions of Americans.

So they storm the Capitol, beat a police officer to death, seriously injure 60 others, parade a flag that commemorates white supremacy through the Rotunda, while legislators don gas masks and build barricades against the mob. Meanwhile, he's busy trying cell phones to lobby the legislators, whose lives he put in jeopardy, to keep objecting to the count so as to buy him time, perhaps to organize more resistance. He doesn't call out the Guard until his aides point out that looking on gleefully as the Capitol is razed by his supporters probably isn't a good look for him.

He lit the match and threw the flaming torch and it damned near got us a government overthrown.

Yet you are minimizing this with false equivalencies and deflections.

This is the problem we face in America - the cult of personality is so strong that we can come within a hair of installing a man in defiance of the expressed will of the people and excuses will be found to claim it isn't as big a deal as everyone thinks.

One other point - if he gets away with this, without paying any penalty, this will be tried again. If nothing else, Trump's term in office showed that if you have the mob, you can get away with damned near anything and your fellow politicians will shut their eyes. Dally with Nazis? Check. Crazy conspiracy theories? Check. Vicious and cruel statements to freakin' children, FFS? Check.

Some legislators went along with The Big Lie about the election because they were afraid for their lives if they did not, BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION!!!!

Any way you slice it, he is too dangerous to be allowed to simply walk off stage. There must be accountability.

I'm not going to re post videos of democrat leaders saying that protest is good. You can look it up . As far as the vote for biden there are many people who have stated under oath that ballots were double counted , observers were denied access and the video of people being ushered out of counting places and then other ballots being pulled from under tables [ in suitcases ] then being run through machines . Something does not add up.

Also note the following During the forensic audit in Ware County Georgia, an equal number of ballots for President Trump and candidate Biden were run through the machine. The result reported from the machine was a 26% lead for candidate Biden. Those running the sample ballots through the machine were shocked and ran the ballots through again, producing the same results.
This is the results on one machine in one county. This feature is available on all Dominion Voting Systems machines in 28 states including every county in the state of Georgia. If this shift, which could be custom set on each machine, was used in other counties it could mean that there is now irrefutable evidence of yet another type of voter fraud.

I'm sure that we could go back and forth about the vote and the riot to no end. I am not going to continue to express my belief that Trump is innocent of any wrongdoing. It is a waste of my time. We currently have a President elect who will take office in less that two weeks . I pray I am wrong as to what I think he will do to our Country but , only time will tell.

You are perpetuating lies IV---lies that have never held up to scrutiny.----ask AG Barr! Did he just convert to some cover up?

While we are at it----there are "colleterial liars" in Congress that I believe need to be expelled---starting with hawley and cruz in the Senate and then beginning with mcCarthy and the rest of those in the House that decided leveraging lies to ingratiate themselves to the cult was an acceptable thing to do----the hell with the will of the majority of the voters---as if we didn't count.

I am pissed---and this is not going to go away easily with me---those creeps share in the responsibility of creating this---they are nothing more than opportunistic scum :redmad:

Protest is good; no one should support armed insurrection. That's another false equivalency - thinking of what happened at the Capitol as just protest. It even goes beyond the awful rioting this summer. This rioting was designed to overthrow our government.

Gabriel Sterling, Georgia System Implementation Manager for the Secretary of State's office, who was in charge of the nuts and bolts of the election, has refuted each of your points in a long press conference. None of your points have stood up to scrutiny. You can find summaries of his refutation at any number of places but a transcript of the press conference, which addresses each of your points, can be found at this site.

Sterling, by the way, is a Republican. So is his boss, Raffensperger.

The US Attorney was told by Barr to investigate credible evidence of election tampering. The US Attorney for Georgia found no credible evidence beyond speculation and rumor and declined. As we found out today, Trump tried to get him fired and a more pliant US Attorney installed.

In addition, it came out today that Trump called the investigator looking into all these conspiracy theories for the Georgia Secretary of State to urge him to "find the fraud". "You'll be a national hero", Trump told him. So Trump's working the investigators as well. Still nothing was found.

In the end, at some point, I think you have to consider that there was actually nothing to BE found.

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Originally Posted by Mike

They are never going to vote for something that might impact them negatively. What the voters want be damned.

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Simple succinct response. Sums it up perfectly without paragraphs of explanation. We are of like mind.

This thread is a joke, right?

What makes you ask that?

I never answer a question in response to a question I posed in response to a question. :shrug:

So how are we supposed to know what you mean? It is a little ambiguous.

There. I ended without a question. You should feel free to answer.

Dave is a democrat and he knows it. He needs to come out of the closet.:flip:

I'm surely not a republican at this point but I don't believe that by default I become a Democrat. :dunno:

Oh. Okeydoke. I appreciate the reply. Thank you!!

Not just this thread but I've been working my way through multiple ones and WOW..
I can't believe some of the things I'm reading.
Multiple people on here are stating that they're okay with taking somebody's first amendment rights away because they don't agree with what they have to say.. that's just disgusting.

I think everybody needs to take a step back and stop with the Republican and Democrat BS.

First and foremost we are Americans start acting like it.

There is no First Amendment issue in this thread.

The First Amendment is about government restrictions on speech. The companies here are private entities. They can ban anyone they want and never run afoul of the First Amendment.

The First Amendment is not absolute, like most things there are limits.

Yeah, and it’s too important to lose.

The 1st. Amendment problem we now see is ; time has changed the way we [ mass ] communicate . The internet has become the news site for a great majority of all people . Not just Americans. Therefore a privately owned site, ie. F Book , Twitter or Parler has because of the mass usage become a defacto news source equal to any T V or Radio Station [ which can be required to broadcast a Presidential speach ] now that may be restricted to a National Emergency , I'm not sure .. To restrict ANYONES access to them is in effect denying them the ability to speak and when the person being denied access is the President , then it becomes a questionable act and is in effect suppression of speech.

I've seen enough anti-Republican stuff online lately that's causing me to wonder if we're overacting on assigning blame. I'm not pointing any fingers here, my friends. I just think we need to be careful.

Yes, I think Trump was corrupt. And, there are Republicans in office who blindly followed him over a cliff. But, not all of them did that. For, we need to be vigilant to ensure all politicians stay within the lines. It is, and will be, an endless task. And, as citizens, we have the right to watch closely over their shoulders while they work for us.

Keep up the good work.

Hunter

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Originally Posted by Independent Voter

.. To restrict ANYONES access to them is in effect denying them the ability to speak and when the person being denied access is the President , then it becomes a questionable act and is in effect suppression of speech.

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The amount of usage doesn't change fundamental rights of ownership. That's why when Parler sued Amazon Web Service for getting shut down, they raised no First Amendment arguments.

The President has no right to demand he be allowed to use private property. He is subject to the same Terms of Agreement that everyone else has.

A guy that can call a news conference and 10 minutes later be carried live on all national news channels, including cable, including foreign news services, radio, print - someone is going to argue HIS speech is somehow being suppressed? Not credible.

You do have a point there Mr. Kevin. I shall tip over my King at this time.

one last thing on open primary..

Background.. we have a Blue Commonwealths Attorney.. far left guy ran against our regular blue guy in the primary.. far left crazies flooded the primary. We lost our "regular Guy" Commonwealths Attorney and have an ultra left.

Fact, we are in a Blue house district.. and it is not going to change.

Fact, we have a medium blue congressman..

We had an AOC type run run against our wishy washy guy in the primary.. people came out of the wood work to vote against the AOC wannabe..

They learned their lesson with Commonwealths Attorney..

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Originally Posted by Independent Voter

You do have a point there Mr. Kevin. I shall tip over my King at this time.

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Thank you for the chinwag!!!