I'm really sick over this, having seen both aircraft fly numerous times...I've been inside Texas Raiders a number of times...:uhuh:...Ben
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I'm really sick over this, having seen both aircraft fly numerous times...I've been inside Texas Raiders a number of times...:uhuh:...Ben
I saw that it was terrible.
Not good. It's a lousy way to die and many families that witnessed it will be scarred.
The humans who erred are dead. We may never know what happened.
Hunter
I've only been to one air show. In the 1970s, we were up from Georgia and I was visiting my grandparents' farm. The Blue Angels were demonstrating maneuvers in their new A-4 Skyhawks and we sat on a hill overlooking the airport, watching them fly patterns about 2 feet from each other (or so it seemed). The noise was fantastic and the pressure wave as they passed low over the hill was concussive. It was thrilling.
And to know that these people at the show, in the midst of that sort of exhilaration, are then dropped into the horror of watching these pilots fall from the sky in a fireball - the emotions are going to be very strong with them so yes, they too will be scarred. We sometimes forget that witnesses are victims also.
Please pray for the pilots, their families, and all who saw this happen.
Tragic :down:
May they all RIP.
Prayer for all involved.
Hate to see a vintage aircraft be lost that way.
Some folks on the 'net are saying it looks like the smaller of the two aircraft purposely struck the B-17. Watching the second video in Ben's link, I must say that theory seems plausible to me. I'm not saying that's what happened, but it sure seems like the smaller aircraft could have avoided the B-17 had it wanted to. Unless there was a note left somewhere, I suspect we will never know. :shrug:
Whatever the cause it was certainly tragic for so many........
My mind doesn't go there---I'm going to hold on to the thought it was a tragic accident caused by any number of things---beginning with the chance of a medical emergency. I hope I am right :dunno:
I just saw a Houston TV broadcast that said both aircraft were based in Conroe, a small city just North of Houston.
Ben, I just did a search of my photographs from when we were at the Conroe airshow in 2016. I don't see either of the aircraft so I assume they were not part of that show.
A medical emergency is quite plausible as is a mechanical malfunction or pilot error. It is a terrible tragedy regardless of cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Grubb
Conroe? Famous for plywoody pools Conroe?
Conroe is about 50 miles North of Dan's (Sandblower Airlines) home with the famous plywoody pool. It is about 15 miles North of my Houston area abode and about the same to the South of Ben's palatial estate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
Here is a link to the aircraft page of the Commemorative Air Force and the 181 incredible aircraft they own and maintain. It is a truly amazing organization.
That was my first reaction when I saw the video, but the likelihood is extremely remote as all participants are a closely knit group, nearer family than friends...I think any personality clashes that serious would have grounded any squabbling crewmembers aboard...Dave's guess at a medical emergency is valid, and an autopsy may provide more clues...The more likely cause could be an engineering failure of any of the structural or operational parts of the aircraft, some of which are nearing 80 to 90 years old...The control surfaces of both aircraft are cable and lever operated, and an overstressed snapped cable in mid-movement could lead to such a disaster...I'll wait for the FAA and NTSB reports...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
That was the Wings of Freedom tour which is a function of the Collings Foundation...Their aircraft are still grounded following the loss of their own B-17 a few years ago...Here is a link to photographs from that event...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
The Bell P-63 King Cobra was a huge improvement over the similar-looking Bell P-39 Airacobra...The P-39 saw extensive service in the early island campaigns of the South Pacific, but its lack of speed and climb rates, and vulnerability to ground fire relegated most of its use to NZ and Aussie forces which were glad to have anything that flew...Soviet forces loved them as tank killers since they had nose mounted cannon and heavy machine guns due to the engines being mounted behind the pilot...By the time the P-63 was introduced the P-51's and P-47's were the dominant fighter planes of American forces...
Below are photos of both aircraft in flight in 2016 at WOH...More photos here...At various times over the years I've been around and inside these same aircraft numerous times...More photos are available in my albums for those interested...I'm devastated by the loss of the volunteers who flew and maintained these old warbirds, not to mention the flying museums themselves...I like to think the souls who did not find their way back to Earth this weekend were greeted at St. Peter's check-in desk by another old flyer who arrived before them, our own Dan Harbaugh...:salute:...Ben
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mKR4Fk6uo...0/IMG_5610.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BbN8Yu51y...0/IMG_5331.JPG
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xt_70ERNP...0/IMG_5374.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KaGIA6Jjg...0/IMG_5679.JPG
I see you found some pretty good models to pose with the aircraft.....................
I named them Flotsam and Jetsam...Not much at taking direction, but both great cooks...:yum:...BenQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike
LMAO!
Mike, the Collings Foundation B-17, "909"," featured in the photo spread where you made your modeling debut is the same one that crashed in October 2019 with the loss of all aboard...That was only the second time I had ever seen it...:uhuh:...BenQuote:
Originally Posted by Truckman
Damn, I crawled all around inside that one and was going to take a ride but they sold out just before I found out I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckman
Outstanding pics of those planes. :cool:
Hunter
The video presented below is the best analysis I've seen yet of what may have caused this fatal accident...I've watched as many different videos as I can trying to visualize the occurrence from as many angles as possible...I'll add that this is very premature analysis, only guesswork, but by a very experienced pilot who has flown with the crews involved in the crash...None of the investigation by the FAA and NTSB has yet been documented, so none of what is said here can be taken as gospel...A bonus in this presentation is the narrator is not only an experienced pilot, but also presents his theories in language that can be clearly interpreted by a layman such as my myself...:2cents:...Ben
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C342...el=blancolirio
I appreciated where he talked about sight lines and cockpit layouts.
About three years ago, Wifey and I took a small plane from Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon Hualapaiou lands (where the glass walkway is located). It was a single-engine plane with a forward propeller. The instrument panel in the plane was high, about my eye level. I couldn't see much looking forward. Instead, the best sightlines were to the side. Wifey, being substantially smaller and shorter, sat in front of me and had no view forward other than the instrument panel itself.
So, I can understand why there may have been significant visibility issues that contributed to the accident. The narrator's comments about altitude and camouflage paint make sense as well.
Hunter
In this discussion of a preliminary report from the NTSB, this analyst assigns blame to the Airboss who directed the bombers and fighters to criss/cross lanes while coming out of a turn..."Dumb, different and dangerous" is the description...Until further facts and analysis are revealed, the description is accurate...:shock:...Ben
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRVqg-pCb6o&ab_channel=blancolirio
The "reporter" sucks! I quit after watching his weather report, not what I came to see.
The preliminary report from the NTSB is downloadable here...If the determination of lack of deconfliction of the flight paths holds up, how does the reporter suck?...The indication is the airboss ordered the criss/cross of flightpaths without ensuring adequate altitude clearance...This is still a preliminary report, and until it's final, the findings are inconclusive...But the indication is error on the part of the airboss...:2cents:...BenQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike
As an aside for those who, like me, take an interest in history, here is a history of one of the aircraft lost in the Dallas accident...Although Texas Raiders was one of the very last B-17's produced near the end of WWII and never participated in combat, it eventually was retired with more military flying time than all but three of the more than 12,000 B-17's produced...Notably it served as the world's first AWACS aircraft, and was a frontline cold warrior flying the DEW line until its eventual retirement...After its conversion to service as a civilian mapping platform for the oil fields in Alaska as well as the North Sea, it was brought back to military honors at the retirement ceremony for General Curtis LeMay...The General was said to have wept at the sight of the old warrior, no mean feat since LeMay was afflicted with Bell's Palsy which froze his face into its famous permanent scowl...
This history was written by Col. Kevin Michels, who "went west" with his aircraft on that fateful day in Dallas last month...:salute:...Ben
Another piece of evidence is presented in the airboss audio transcript...Below is a continuation of the earlier series I used from a presenter who has his detractors and others like me who think he does a credible job...Presented here as further material in an ongoing investigation...:2cents:...Ben
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFgbDIM8M5s&ab_channel=blancolirio